RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (Full Version)

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Brasca123 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/19/2015 9:19:04)

i really liked the war, but i agree with megakyle on the drop item rate, i was planning to farm the drops on the bombing run because there are no fights there, yet i can't



Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/19/2015 10:05:23)

quote:

Different item drops in different parts: I have been told that in the Bombing run the items needed for the final doom and destiny items do not drop. While the drops do not need to be of a equal rate, I do believe that all ways of warring should be equal in their drop pools, for better or worse.


Why? The bombing run has none of the Baron's minions in it. The Baron's minions are the ones that gathered the two items in the first place. Just like with the Catapult being stolen, it's storyline driven. There's also the point that you will be able to farm for these essences immediately after the war ends because there will be a way to get them left in, as I already mentioned.



megakyle777 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/19/2015 10:09:03)

In that case I apologize. (:

Although, if they are not The Baron's minions... does that mean those doing the bombing run are just killing random undead that does not help the war despite helping the war?



Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/19/2015 10:23:24)

They are part of the undead that were around at the beginning of the war. The Baron isn't calling as many but the people bombing are keeping them out of the waves until you reach the castle.



megakyle777 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/19/2015 11:02:26)

Ah okay. Well, I'd just like to say great job with this war then! To all the team.[:D]



Myra -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 19:42:26)

Okay. A month has passed, another Friday 13th came around, and we had another war … which we lost. Last time I had a lot of opinions about why that happened, this time I am honestly kind of stumped. This war was extremely well planned and the staff went above and beyond to make it awesome – taking into account many of the points that were made earlier in this thread.

We knew the deadline from the start, it was a deadline in the evening, we had a lot of variety, and we had a lot of milestones that helped to keep up the motivation. There are also major storyline implications that we don’t know in full at this point, but it’s probably going to involve the loss of an NPC we have known for a very long time – so it was a really consequential war.

The war was actually going really well too. There was a lot of forum activity, and we achieved the milestones easily. Except for the last one – actually winning the war.

I think many players were a lot more motivated and fought a lot harder than the last time. I know I did. I changed my schedule and put off some things I actually wanted to do this week, and I tried to do everything I couldn’t put off as quickly and efficiently as possible, in order to free more time for this war. I also sacrificed sleep, to the point that I now feel awful. (My own fault, I know. I won’t repeat this mistake).

There are some things that I consider risky moves by the staff. The war had 4 million waves, and although we came really close to defeating them, that is a lot to ask from a community that, as I pointed out last time, is smaller and busier than it was some years ago.
Also, the catapult mission and the bombing run were changed/taken away at certain points in the war, leaving us with fewer and slightly slower options to defeat waves.

But I don’t want to say that these are the reasons for the defeat – I don’t think they are. If we had won – and we were really close - I know that I would be praising these decisions now: Yay, they gave us a big, challenging war.

What I want to say though: I feel that right now the consequences of wars are going in a direction that instead of rewarding the community for fighting, they are punishing us for not fighting enough. And it seems that players who fight the most are actually punished more than those who aren’t as active. Who is going to be affected by the curse the most? The people who play the most, right? Who is going to notice that Serenity is missing now? Those who play frequently and pay attention to the storyline, right?
I feel that this is a mistake, I believe it is going to hurt the community and by extension, the game in the long run.

I never thought I would say this, but in my opinion the consequence is: Wars need to become less demanding. It is not my fault that there are fewer people playing the game, and I cannot replace them by just fighting harder and harder.
I feel burnt out. I have a full-time job and a social life, and those are not things I can or would like to change. If I keep feeling punished by wars for that, I will participate less and eventually I might stop participating. If this sounds huffy, I’m sorry, it’s not supposed to. It is honestly what I think will happen.

This time I have no clear idea what actually needs to change, that is why would like to discuss it. Maybe it’s my attitude. If I end up feeling this when I care a lot about the outcome of a war, maybe I should just care less. Fight as much as I like, but not to a point where I feel tired of it. But if everyone adopts this attitude, and the demands of wars stay the same, we are not going to win anymore.



Dragonman -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 19:55:37)

quote:

What I want to say though: I feel that right now the consequences of wars are going in a direction that instead of rewarding the community for fighting, they are punishing us for not fighting enough. And it seems that players who fight the most are actually punished more than those who aren’t as active


quote:

I never thought I would say this, but in my opinion the consequence is: Wars need to become less demanding. It is not my fault that there are fewer people playing the game, and I cannot replace them by just fighting harder and harder.
I feel burnt out. I have a full-time job and a social life, and those are not things I can or would like to change. If I keep feeling punished by wars for that, I will participate less and eventually I might stop participating. If this sounds huffy, I’m sorry, it’s not supposed to. It is honestly what I think will happen.


These sums up how I feel, and why I didn't really participate in the dragonrider war or February's Friday the 13th.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:03:57)

quote:

I never thought I would say this, but in my opinion the consequence is: Wars need to become less demanding


It depends what you mean by this.

Should wars start to see some smaller wave amounts that can relate to our player-base? Yes I can agree with that one.

Should DF and wars start to turn into "everyone gets a trophy just for playing, nothing bad happens if you lose."? No, I don't agree. This is the first war I've helped in for a long time because the story was actually interesting, we had a reason to fight, and it actually felt fun instead of "Well, even if I don't help nothing will change."
----

Thoughts on this current war.

I thought it was fantastic. Regardless of our outcome.

The evolving war camp/battlefield, a smart enemy, a reason to fight, and nice rewards. The new war meter style was nice, I'm glad you guys brought it back out of the shelf.

I will say that the catapults being stolen, while I liked it, probably should have happened a tad higher up in the war percentage, but I really don't see that as the reason we lost as we held a high WPM for HOURS after losing them. If it were really the reason we failed, the WPM would have dropped drastically the second they were gone.

I know every war can't be like this, but I hope we see at least a few important wars like this during this year.



Rio3678 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:08:02)

I'm actually concerned, that we lost 2 wars in a row.



The Jop -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:11:44)

I think taking away the catapults and not showing the percentage slowed things down. I understand some people want a challenge, but I don't think a challenge means much if you fail to rise to it constantly. The visual display and different ways to war were interesting though.



Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:15:29)

quote:

But I don’t want to say that these are the reasons for the defeat – I don’t think they are. If we had won – and we were really close - I know that I would be praising these decisions now: Yay, they gave us a big, challenging war.


This right here is the main point that I want everyone to look at because it's the main part of all this.

We gave you almost EVERYTHING you said you wanted, and needed, to war. We stayed up and put shops in when you earned them, changed the dialog at points, the waves even auto shifted to give you the sense that the war was natural and like it would be if it was a real thing. It's tied into a storyline that will now be a larger part of this year's events. It gave rewards and incentives and penalties if you lost.

If you all had won it would have been praised as what "brought life back to DF wars". You all would have demanded we do more wars like this because it was so good. I got messages and PM's from people thanking the team for putting this much effort into it, even just recently when you lost. People loved it for what it was even with a loss.

quote:

I never thought I would say this, but in my opinion the consequence is: Wars need to become less demanding. It is not my fault that there are fewer people playing the game, and I cannot replace them by just fighting harder and harder.

No, it's not. No, you shouldn't have to. But this is what it took to SHOW people that because if we didn't, if we did a "normal" basic war you'd have rioted because we didn't take your suggestions and use them. The next war probably won't be this involved or long. Are we going to get complaints when it's not the same and as "climatic"? If we do I'm going to point at this last war and tell you exactly why it's not. It BURNS PEOPLE OUT. Both the staff and the players are burnt out from this. It's NOT something that can happen often and this is the reason. I burnt myself out getting everything I did ready for you all.

quote:

I feel burnt out. I have a full-time job and a social life, and those are not things I can or would like to change. If I keep feeling punished by wars for that, I will participate less and eventually I might stop participating. If this sounds huffy, I’m sorry, it’s not supposed to. It is honestly what I think will happen.

It's a valid point and one that makes a lot of sense.

quote:

This time I have no clear idea what actually needs to change, that is why would like to discuss it. Maybe it’s my attitude. If I end up feeling this when I care a lot about the outcome of a war, maybe I should just care less. Fight as much as I like, but not to a point where I feel tired of it. But if everyone adopts this attitude, and the demands of wars stay the same, we are not going to win anymore.

I don't have a right answer for you. Only what I already said. We gave you all everything you wanted and demanded. You still lost. You are all now pretty burnt out. Is that worth it every single time?

quote:

I think taking away the catapults and not showing the percentage slowed things down. I understand some people want a challenge, but I don't think a challenge means much if you fail to rise to it constantly. The visual display and different ways to war were interesting though.

Storyline heavy things and consequences were asked so I delivered. You don't get to pick and choose which consequences you want after you want them. It fit in the format of the war and as such it happened. Would you have won even if you had them? That's honestly debatable judging by the fact of how fast you all BLEW THROUGH waves to get the Doom and Destiny upgrades. I'm not buying that excuse as it's not supported by facts.



wer -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:18:28)

but Ash it was still pretty amusing that our one catapult that we braught to the battle was stolen, the Baron must be a pretty good stragatist!



Dragonknight315 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:24:02)

@Ash You are right in ever regard. We lost because we lost.
Deadline? Told us.
Motivation? Gave plenty.
Catapults and other stuff? We did better without them in some parts of the war.
Timing of event? We got so close to the end that it didn't matter.

We could have won this war, but we didn't. I do feel burn't out, but I am proud that we came this far. Before this war, I didn't really play DF that often, yet, I put in 2500 waves and posted on the forums daily. Now, I think that I'll put in more effort into the game I love.



wer -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:25:32)

well i guess then we should present our surrender to the Baron[:o]



ChrisX -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:26:07)

I've played DF on and off since 2006. And before this war, the most memorable war I've had was the Final 13 war.
I honestly think, even though we lost this war, this war definitely brought wars back to Dragonfable, and secured DragonFable as the best AE game that handles war.
But yeah, I agree with Myra. I feel burnt from this war, and a lot of players seem very burnt out. The staff did an amazing job, listening to the majority of what the players want in a war.
I don't expect every war to be like this, but I have a feeling that those "BIG" wars might have a chance to have this much effort in it. And personally, I think it'll be worth the wait to have another war like this again.



monstervet -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:28:09)

do i want another war like this?
Yes but with a warning, and perhaps both sides need to understand the time when it occurs, if its during a holiday for most people you can expect a large amount of waves and a short time to complete it. If it is during a busy time for school or work, well we can only do what we can.

Good job staff, Ash, Tomix all of you.

i actually wouldnt mind a couple of old fashioned wars, but its all up to you guys.
well this was a good war, but the shadows and reality call for me adios till next time.



Lineolata -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:28:54)

As someone who initially disliked the changes in catapults and bombing, I'd like to say that my opinion has changed. The team delivered brilliantly, and we lost only because of factors beyond their control. A smaller playerbase, time of day, and so on. This war wasn't perfect, but it was fantastic. Ash is right that I wouldn't want it every time, though. It was a nice change.



Chewy905 -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/20/2015 20:30:29)

I am really wishing we won the last war so we wouldnt have to lose serenity. What's gonna happen to the loading screen including her?
Probably nothng cause she'll still be in book 1 and 2



Branl -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:31:09)

Some very valid points Ash.
There would have most definitely been praise all around had this war be won.
The fact that the community is so wishy washy with what they want doesn't help either.

I feel 4 million was a good amount for us. We came extremely close to winning this war.
Just because we lost by a few % doesn't mean we should lower the waves.
In the end, this all happened because the community asked for it.
Big wars were asked for. Story driven wars were asked for. And most importantly harsh consequences were asked for.
Just because we lost doesn't mean we should just get to just ask for more time or ask for less harsh consequences, as the community is getting what they wanted.

A very really problem, however, is the effect the loss of a war can have on the playerbase.
It may sadden, but motivate players to participate in wars, or it may sadden, enrage, and demoralize players from participating in wars.
The community needs to come to a general consensus on this. It really isn't fair to keep begging Ash to do this or that, but when it happens, complain and want it gone.
As for me? I feel more motivated to actually participate in wars, more because of the rewards than the consequences, as I'm not particularly emotionally invested into the storyline.
But, that's just me.



Alpha Centipede -> RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them? (3/20/2015 20:43:46)

You know, I think Myra has already summed up just about everything I want to say about this war. Yes, we got everything we asked for. But we still ended up losing, and I can say for sure that not everyone will be looking forward to the curse or the consequences.

However, demanding as it was, this war was actually pretty fun, and it brought back many players - new and old alike - too. The staff really did a phenomenal job with this war, and I really admire that effort. In the end, it was us who lost, and we will accept that loss with grace.

Come next war, I think we should have a lighter one, as I feel that two losses in a row wouldn't do much for motivation in the long run. I may be wrong though, and I do hope that I am.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:49:41)

Branl: Yeah a few percent now, but who knows what it is later we've lost 2 now in a row. The DF player base in all truth is not what it used to be when we had wars like this it's smaller and in truth wars may need to be looked at to reflect that. When i logged on and helped when I could the average players online was 400-500 a lot of the time, yet it's 4 million waves. Breaking it down alone by 400 online it's 10,000 per person, 500 8000 per person. Yes the people number does spike now and then, but average was less than the past.

Story wars are, and in truth they are something sort of needed yes. Could the time of been extended to account for those in the US who at the end of the war get less than 1 hour to help out yes, we could of had it be a 10 pm deadline vs a 7 pm deadline allowing even the latest to join them 3 hours.

One thing we do need to remember the player base is not voiced majority wise via the forums, so it's different in a lot of ways. Plus while it was different compared to others in truth this war felt little like the wars of old in my book. I've been here through them all since day 1.

Wars that took investment like majority of things with Xan even when we lost, we lost things but the point was we were able to make it right another way. Next time we flattened him, then there was the beach war where again more people and more active. Plus it was invested it was built up overtime with the character.

The storm war, another example of everything going major mad house and another story built thing.

We had two friday the 13'th pretty close back to back and that burns people out alone, added in it's the same thing in a way, the wars are very little different.

Had the war count been adjusted to fit the player base of this day and age we'd of won.



Ash -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 20:58:51)

I'm not sure if we're looking at the same game. You won a 4 million wave war just recently with the DragonRider war. You also came exceedingly close this time. I'm, again, not buying an excuse that isn't backed up by facts. You're stating that the player base is smaller, and that's true, but then why are they able to take down things like the War at the Core and the DragonRider war with no issues and yet when you fail you resort to "well it was the number of waves that did us in!"

Please either rephrase your argument or pick one that is based on facts. The same amount of players are around and have been around through all 4 of the wars I mentioned. You won two and lost two with very few differences.



Flamehead 12 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 21:01:38)

so after reading ash's responses I feel a little guilty when I say I want this war all the time .-.
the only thing I *might oppose is the amount of waves in the war, I didn't realize anybody had actually asked for more millions of waves with the current status of DF player count. but even so I feel that this amount might be a good number to stick with.. idk

EDIT: after reading ash's above post I stand firm that 4 million is a good number



Sirilidion -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 21:02:48)

I know I haven't played in a while ( sorry, for that :( ) but one of the last time I was here wasn't there a war that supose to be the last Friday the 13th war? What ever happened with that idea?
Oh, btw did I miss anything the last 1 and a half year when doing other things then playing DF? ^^



shadow dragon666 -> RE: Serenity Before The Storm Analysis Thread (3/20/2015 21:04:47)

Ash: What was the time frame on those wars? Was it the exact as these? Also when did they end? Was it also 7 PM server time? Also when did they take place?

Also the wars I mentioned the players who took part in them aren't around or if they are, they aren't as active as they once were, and the numbers of players active is lower comparatively.

We had restraints placed on this war, how much so were other wars you mentioned? So partially yeah numbers do factor into it, we came close and surprisingly enough so, we also just had a friday the 13'th war not to long ago, it's not a change of pace which adds to average player mentality of burn out faster sorts.



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