RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 10:26:59)

The Exp curve is one of the things I'm bringing up to Geo to hopefully adjust in the near future. The battle rewards would be adjusted automatically accordingly if it's approved. (It may not be)

It was never meant to be a "bad" thing. DF is simply a different game. Balance wise and gameplay wise the two could never be similar due to AQ's battle structure being completely different than DF's. Both are very fun as I play both as well but they are totally different games on every level.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 10:36:09)

wow fast reply! Another question: unlike AQ where everything crits 10% of the time, DF crit varies. Will there be a way to improve pet and guest crit rates using cha or something similar for beastmaster builds?

oh and I feel +20 damage to pets is not that useful for 200 CHA. Because pets deal so little damage, cha should make more of a difference than str/dex/int. Otherwise, Cha could be weighted *more* than str/dex/int when statting items, instead of less like now, so that all items gave more CHA than str/dex/int.

Oh and last thing: I think the pet dragon should be summonable in battle like other pets.

Oh I lied :P MRM seems to be too much on equipment. With regula equips not weighted towards MRM, I have 54 MRM. Thats over 50% chance to dodge!! That is like taking half damage from every attack on TOP of my elemental resist! It's very OP right now. I tested it on the rift war boss, and I dodged almost everything...

Final thing for real. I've been testing things out on voltabolt's creations, but I can't truly gauge their power against such weak bosses. Could you maybe make a zone like you did in dragonsgrasp, where we can go to fight old bosses like manacrest, mysterious gnome, Dr. When, Wargoth, Xan, Anniversary Akriloth, and valtrith?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 10:58:06)

Pets are meant to be a supplement to your weapon damage, not totally replace it. That's why it's not set higher. Weapon + pet + Cha is meant to give the a total damage package. Guests are on top of that, but not included in it, since guests aren't assumed to be used in every battle.

It will in the next engine update. I need to unlock it from the guest part but with everything else doing an engine update right now isn't really feasible.

You're pretty much topped out on what MPM you can get. It's going to be shrinking on "offensive" and "hybrid" items and a little bit on defensive. At level 100 you'd have around 55ish with full defensive setup so you won't be gaining any extra on items anymore.

Maybe? I was toying around with doing a "challenge" area like the AQ void but right now there's no time to even do small things like the Tooth Fragment shop and item so that's well down the road.



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:00:45)

level 100? is that a hint? :P



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:01:27)

If by hint you mean years from now, I guess? That was always the "final" level cap since everything goes to that.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:07:27)

hmm luck gives more accuracy to regular hits. Pets suffer from very poor accuracy however. Could luck or cha improve pet accuracy?

oh and you didn't answer this one last time: Can pet crit rates be improved by cha?



garrigaisaac -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:07:55)

when will we get the rest of the update and stuff

im not in a hurry just wondering [8|]



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:10:30)

I'm noticing that the are updating every now and then though the week so there are small updates but together alot of updates and bugfixes done and I'm sure the rest will keep coming for two more weeks I imagen but that's Ash's area of experties xD

Edit: woops there was alot more that needed to be done than I though xD will the PVP bug be fixed too?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:10:57)

quote:

hmm luck gives more accuracy to regular hits. Pets suffer from very poor accuracy however. Could luck or cha improve pet accuracy?

Pets will be getting bonus, based on level, to help fix that problem as I get through items.

quote:

when will we get the rest of the update and stuff

Damage range changes will be in the next couple of months as I have free time over the week to start working through them. The item stats update though is going to take longer and be in descending levels so level 80 weapons -> level 79 weapons -> level 78 weapons -> etc. Then moving through all the other item types that need it. It'll be fast once I start but I have to get through stuff like MP potion training fixes and such first.



Conadetrion -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:12:15)

Why did you take mana from us??? I cant even use one of my favorite class anymore becuz it uses up 2 much mana against certain bosses and i can change armor midbattle so if such a thing were to happen im screwed! So such a huge deduction in mana? Why?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:13:04)

From my explanation under "Wis" in the first post.

quote:

Wis was considered a "dump stat". By that I mean you just dumped a few points into it and you were good forever. Now you're going to have to consider how mana intensive your class is, the length of the quest and the boss fight, and figure out the ideal balance of Wis to give you enough mana. Mana intensive classes are going to require you to put more points in Wis and that's OK! You should have to think a bit about your stat setup and tweak it to fit your preferred class.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:15:43)

how about cha and pet crit rates? For pets to truly become a main source of damage, they should have the same crit rates that regular attacks do!



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:17:40)

Again, missing the point. Pets aren't supposed to be the main source of damage. They are meant to be combined with weapon damage and Cha. This isn't AQ, so they aren't going to be the "main" source of your damage. Weapon + Pet + Cha.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:20:02)

even in AQ, Cha is a secondary stat, equal to luck or dex not a main stat.

So the damage is the sum of weapon + pet + 20 (from str/dex/int/cha)? Then why does the 20 from the str/dex/int have such a high chance to double and become 40 while the pet's 20 doesn't get the same treatment? Even if pets were not the main source of damage, they should still get the same benefit from 200 points of charisma that weapons get from 200 points of str/dex/int right?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:28:13)

Because your weapon has a higher chance to crit based on your crit score. Let's say your pet has a 20-50 damage range for 30 average. You weapon is a 50-50 for 50 average and you have 200 Cha and 100 Str.

Average hit is (30+20+50+10)=110
Crit on player (30+20+100+10) = 160
Crit on pet (60+20+50+10) = 140
Crit on both (60+20+100+10) = 190

Compared to a character who only is using weapons and 200 Str + 100 Luk
Average hit is (50+20+5)=75
Crit with player (100+20+5) = 125

Why should I buff pets more than they already are? You're going to get higher amounts of Str/Dex/Int to get an even amount to a 200 Cha user using a pet but I'm not going to now buff you over that amount by giving pets more of a crit rate. It's not going to happen.

Pets are meant to be an equal option instead of only using weapons. There's a few ways to get a little bit more damage out of them by arranging stats in a certain way but it won't average out to be more in the long run when stats are all awarded properly. One build isn't meant to be above all the others, they're all meant to do comparable damage and give you alternate ways of doing said comparable damage.



pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:40:49)

Okay first thing: I wish pets did 20-50 damage! [:D]

Next, while true that a crit on both player and pet does more, even the 0 cha player can use a pet for 30 extra damage, putting a crit on both at 185, only 5 less than the crit on both with 200 cha. Now, the luck that the player has easily makes up for 5 damage by giving more accuracy and crit chance, so the cha user ends up behind.

But one thing I didn't realize was that crit doesn't couble the stat bonus. So a crit doesn't do +40, it still does +20, so it isn't as unbalanced as I thought. However, pet users do fall slightly behind.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:48:59)

That's the thing though, how often is a pet with 3 crit going to crit? Even with the wackiness of the RNG, not a whole lot. Yes, a non Cha user can use a pet for extra damage, they're going to be doing significantly less damage over the course of a quest due to that lost Cha damage. The most likely course is crit on player driving up damage while the Cha from stat training and items pushes your pet damage up to evened out with someone using just a weapon and criting slightly more due to investing in Luk as well as Str.

That's one of the things I tinkered with. Not nearly as far behind as you're thinking though.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:49:19)

@Dracojan - Well, that's not really the case if people are also investing in END and WIS; my level 40 only lost about 2.5% average damage from switching STR to LUK (barely any different from the 2% my level 80 lost), and my level 20 lost 4% from DEX > LUK. However, I only have about half my points in a damage stat on those characters, so if I instead put all my points into one or the other and ignored END and WIS (though it's probably not advisable at low levels...) then that difference is doubled, making STR 5% better for average damage on my 40 and DEX 8% better on my 20.

That's also assuming no Doom/Destiny weapon though, which skews things towards LUK if you use them at the appropriate level due to the much higher base damage; using the highest Doom weapon possible on both, the difference becomes only 1.5% on both my 40 and 20 with END and WIS, and of course that would again be doubled on a glass cannon build to 3%.

So, in short, even at low levels there's not much of a damage advantage for investing in STR/DEX/INT, and since that's all they do they're essentially pointless (for a stat build, not necessarily for items) until you've maxed LUK.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:51:31)

How much Str/Dex/Int are you factoring in based on item then? If Luk is the "go to" stat now how exactly are you calculating growth from items?



Greldracion -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 11:52:54)

@ Pitties For explosive damage, weapon stats, luck, and crit wins out slightly. But charisma can have a higher average damage value because damage comes from more than 1 source.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 12:17:14)

@Ash - All I've done at the moment is figure the average damage lost from stat build changes on my particular characters with the items they have, which are in general the best "balanced" gear they can get (I never really favored Crit over all else, I liked M/P/M and resistances too). But while stats from items would seem too small to be very relevant to stat builds at the moment - unless you're going for a particular amount of a stat and no more (like, for example, you only want exactly 50 WIS in total) - if STR/DEX/INT from items will be increased, that will only make LUK better as a stat build choice since it will raise our base damage, making S/D/I's flat damage less valuable and LUK's % damage more valuable.

Using my 80 as an example: She has 61 INT from items, so her stat damage is 26 with max INT and 16 with max LUK. Her weapon damage is 82-100 and her Crit is 38, with only 13 LUK from items. With a full INT build, her average damage is (((82 + 100) / 2 + 26) * 1.38 =) 161.46, while with LUK it's (((82 + 100) / 2 + 16) * 1.48 = ) 158.36; LUK's average is about 2% lower. If the INT from her items doubles (just as a random experiment, not that I think it will), then that becomes 32 vs 22 stat damage, thus 169.74 vs 167.24 average damage, making LUK only ~1.5% worse than INT.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 12:40:31)

Not really sure why you're doubling Luk along with Int there. 169.74 is far more over the course of a battle than 158.36. That's my main complaint with your assessment. You're thinking all stats are going to just double. Luk is not going to be as prevalent as it is now on items, same for M/P/M while things like Int are going to become far more common. Str/Dex/Int may end up being more than doubled on some items where it needs to be while Luk being cut will vastly skew your results.

Try a 360ish Int vs 250ish Luk. 36 points vastly out performs 12, even if you try to factor in the 12% crit increase, which won't balance out the fact that crit's as a whole are less common, along with M/P/M having far less points. Your main benefit with Luk is more of a rounded base while Int would give you more of a direct increase.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 12:53:26)

What? No, I didn't double LUK anywhere. I only doubled the stat damage I was getting from that 61 INT on my items, which was 6 and would then be 12, added to the 10 that 200 LUK from my build gives me and multiplied by Crit. I think you may be misunderstanding, as I'm only talking about LUK being superior in our character stat builds, not for item stats. And in fact, LUK being cut on items would only make it even better as a character stat, just as increased S/D/I will, when it's already superior.



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 12:57:14)

well im using a build that has 200 str and 195 luk and with items i can get 26+10 dmg and 10% higher crit chance, and 10% higher defences. at the cost of hp, mp and bonus pet dmg.
but my full offensive build works fine so far.
when you go for a more balanced build and you want to choose just 1 offensive stat then its up to you to choose which one you like more. now that crit has been reduced all the instant crit skills are much more valuable and if you use them like 50% of the time, then luk would provide much less dmg to you in the long run.
since we are having a whole discussion about what is better proves that Ash has done a good job and now stats are very close in their effectiveness.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/27/2015 12:58:13)

Ah, gotcha. I misread the second stat example then. Yeah from a simple character stat point it appears better. Ideally it's to be used as an "annihilator" type setup if you're going to go that route mainly just to buff the heck out of your damage while sacrificing survivability from End/Wis. I mean you could do a Luk/End/Wis build and get a benefit that way pulling from item stats but strictly speaking a pure Str/Dex/Int would pull ahead damage wise when you start getting items lumped on top.



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