RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/25/2015 23:38:06)

@Ash

I will be fair that I might have been... asking a bit much. I was trying my best to think along the lines of both limitations and have a system that will not confuse anyone but what can you do?

Again to be fair, you are the one that has any experience with this so if you try your best for the best of just about everyone, I have no true complaints. Just might have some quirks that I will notice from time to time. Again, you did a nice job in just about everything and I hope you will be able to... well, improve everything. Just have a good time in a process I guess.



Evangel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 0:35:52)

A simple stat system can be just as effective as a complex system. It has worked for DragonFable so far. Some systems can get too complex and convoluted. Although I certainly would not mind the system Ash mentioned in future AE games. We'll see what they do in AQ2D/3D. Such systems need to be built from the beginning, not years later.



docblade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 1:36:11)

Tanks to the update, my Elemental Unity is only good for Stats. It makes WAY less damage than a standart attack



The Jop -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 1:43:26)

I thought it did 200% damage...



My Name is Jake -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 2:09:50)

If you're a Warrior DoomKnight max strength then luck. These are the best main stats and crit is the best secondary stat.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 6:43:40)

quote:

I had to balance around the fact that it needed to be simple and easy to understand while not making one thing overwhelmingly good. All of the stats are individually important but none are "better" than any other. You'll also have more Str/Dex/Int to play around with to buff up your damage as I push through item changes in the coming months that will separate out the main damage stats from the other ones.

The problem is the more complex we make it the more there is to balance and the more loopholes players find because we did miss something. The other side of what you're saying is that yes, it would make the game more complex, but how complex should DF be? Should every stat have 4-6 functions like a typical RPG? DF tried something similar at the start and it didn't work out mainly because players got confused really easily.

I would have liked to make all of the stats have different secondary effects. Dex increasing dodge chance by a %, increasing your chance to Crit. (basically filling the holes Luck is patching at this point) Str decreases damage taken by %, increases the damage a crit does. Stuff like that. The problem is we would have to both increase the amount of stat points you get at any given level, then adjust the amount of all the secondary effects to scale properly both by level and by amount, then move into re-balancing all monsters accordingly. Just doing the item changes alone is a monumental task and something that's going to take me months to get through. If we actually gave stats all the effects they need it'd take years to get DF functioning in a way that works with those stats.

There's also the issue of players getting confused. Remember when Int actually increased your mana? Players were so confounded by that, along with the fact that Str and Dex didn't have similar secondary effects, along with how Mages then got a "bonus" for being a mage that neither of the other base classes got. There was more thought put into builds but it ended up confusing most of the general playing population if even the amount of people asking on the forums was any indication. Confused players make bad decisions, as is seen in AQ where a "balanced" build of chucking points into every stat is still seen today as all those secondary effects are confusing for players. That's why I simplified the damage formula's in the first place because the amount of people who couldn't do the math and just put points in because they were told to wasn't right.

If DF was akin to W.o.W. I'd agree that the stat system needs to be overhauled into having a lot more depth. Personally I'd love having a combat system that's built like that and that would allow us to design fights that do things we could never do with DF's engine. As it is I'm trying to push the boundaries in certain ways in upcoming classes along with a few bosses, but that's neither here nor there. DF has a simplistic engine that was never built for what you're asking. It was never considered at the thought you'd have more than 6 elemental resists and maybe 4 statuses at a time. The status/resistance panel is proof of that. The game was meant to be very basic to pick up but to be engaging in other ways. Half the decisions weren't based on, "the math involved with stats..." it was based on, "man this would look cool....can we make the player do X?" The game itself just can't handle that and never was intended to. Today we're already pushing the limits of what it can handle and a complete re-write is out of the question. This is something that needs to be brought up for AQ3D and those games NOW though while they are still in the planning stages. It's honestly a little late to try for DF.

quote:

In hindsight though, the previous set-up did... inflate the three main stats usefulness where, let us be honest, to the low amount of choices that were viable,

So we're being honest about this, Str/Dex/Int in the previous setup just did what they're doing in 14.0. The only difference is the amount has changed. (Not all that much at 200 Str/Dex/Int either) It never inflated them simply because Luk and Cha were useless to even attempt to put any points into at any time for any reason. If you did anything but "Main Damage Stat / End / Wis" you just lost damage over all. The difference now is all the stats do something so they all work. Now it's just more apparently that DF's stats are more singular than other games and have been from the start.


Do not mind but why is balance so important for in this single player game for you?



Therril Oreb -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 6:56:42)

Balance is important to ensure everyone has something they like and to allow there to be fun fights.

The only ones who would not like these balance changes are those that want to 1-hit through everything. But people who want to be like a real Dragonlord are now no longer held back by stats. CHA has actual use.
Or classes like Pyromancer or Entropy are more fun to play with since being defensive is not useless any, defenses are better now and skills who buff Defense help too.

Balance is not only neededin PvP games but also for PvE to make sure a game is fun. Not too easy, it needs challenges. But also not constantly too hard either.
With previous critters, people almost always deal 200% base damage. Monsters are too easy, you can't even see them fight unless they are with 3 and even then.
Bosses were either too easy (HP walls pretty much) or too hard since non-offesive skills were not good enough.

Ash tries to fix this and put some fun in the game.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 7:56:48)

quote:

The only ones who would not like these balance changes are those that want to 1-hit through everything.

Not everyone



Kyokamiurahma -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 8:43:50)

Like the stat changes, now full offensive people can actually see a profit in Luck.
But seriously after all these years you still haven't fixed the bug that enemies can still evade attacks no matter how high the character's bonus is? Or just today it happened to me again: enemy has no resistances, but resists my stun. This shouldn't be happening.
Also, for reality's sake, how do I miss an attack when my enemy is stunned and is standing in one place and not moving? (no debuffs on the player character)



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 8:58:22)

this is not a bug.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:03:34)

Those aren't bugs, it's the enemy rolling a 100 or you rolling a 1; instant-success and instant-failure, respectively. In terms of realism, no matter the circumstance there is always the possibility of something happening to thwart your or the enemy's attacks; they can't, due to limitations of the game engine and, I imagine, lack of necessity, show monsters moving as they would in reality, so just imagine that the enemy randomly happened to stumble out of the way, completely by accident. That's the sort of thing those rolls are meant to represent I would think.



docblade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:24:20)

@ Jop. It did. Before the update. I tried it on several enemies in PVP and in 41 of 50 runs, the Elemental Unity did less damage.

I got the feeling that these update will have a DEEP impact for wars. Dmk's are the spine at the warmonger's army (and maybe kidneys, lungs and stomach as well). With these update, a lot of them won't reach the counterbreak as they can't shred through the Waves like a titanium sledge hammer through wet toilet paper



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:35:19)

LV 80 players with no WIS investment lost about 300-400 mana. You're telling me that you need more than 800 mana to clear a war wave of 5-6 battles with DMK or KAA? Just no ;)

About E.U defender: It does less damage because crit got nerfed. Try with full damage stat + luck build.



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:43:00)

quote:

The only ones who would not like these balance changes are those that want to 1-hit through everything.


I'm still onehitting my way though everything though? But that's not it it just feels like I lost a big part of myself when I see my mana just going from 1K+ to -1K :P Oh well I went though quests and still had like 200 mana left without the use of any potions or healing stuff, I guess m stats was made to adjust to exactlly this from the start as if it knew it was coming and look that way. YAY for a noob who just rnadomly looked at guides and used his own imagination instead of following them to the letter [;)]



David the Wanderer -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:47:31)

@docblade: Also, may I suggest not using PvP? If a character has "All" resistance, you're going to deal less damage to them. Try to use a monster with high HP but no Good resistance. Akira is a good option, personally.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 9:58:47)

quote:

Tanks to the update, my Elemental Unity is only good for Stats. It makes WAY less damage than a standart attack

It's not doing any less damage. Now you're just not criting and doing extra damage every hit.

quote:

Do not mind but why is balance so important for in this single player game for you?

A game without rules isn't a game. Even the most basic of games, like Tic-Tac-Toe and Rock/Paper/Scissors, have rules. All balance is is a more in-depth set of rules for you to play by.

quote:

I got the feeling that these update will have a DEEP impact for wars. Dmk's are the spine at the warmonger's army (and maybe kidneys, lungs and stomach as well). With these update, a lot of them won't reach the counterbreak as they can't shred through the Waves like a titanium sledge hammer through wet toilet paper

In what way? Because they can't crit every hit and do upwards of 800% damage? Do me a favor and with a doomknight go to the permanent "War at the Core" or the Sulen'eska rose war. Go do a few waves there. I did as a Doomknight, Ascendant, Ninja, Necromancer, Paladin, Warrior, Mage, and Rogue. I had no trouble one shotting mobs. I had a little more time on multi mobs with Warrior and Rogue but those scaling HP ranges will be adjusted in future wars to make it a bit easier. Again, without checking anything, an assumption is being made that is false.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 10:08:39)

quote:

A game without rules isn't a game. Even the most basic of games, like Tic-Tac-Toe and Rock/Paper/Scissors, have rules. All balance is is a more in-depth set of rules for you to play by.

Yeah I do not understand the reason by this answer so I will ask like this,why do you want those more in dept set of rules for dragonfable?

quote:

I'm still onehitting my way though everything though? But that's not it it just feels like I lost a big part of myself when I see my mana just going from 1K+ to -1K :P Oh well I went though quests and still had like 200 mana left without the use of any potions or healing stuff, I guess m stats was made to adjust to exactlly this from the start as if it knew it was coming and look that way. YAY for a noob who just rnadomly looked at guides and used his own imagination instead of following them to the letter

I do not mean tier 2 or higher classes or better yet doomknight, try it with your base class and see if you can 1 hit everything. I have a level 80 warrior be it dragonwarrior the highest level and I wanna see that it means something its not just a number and with the previous system I saw that.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 10:19:39)

Without that set of rules the game turns into one where you hit the button and a pretty pixel falls out. There is no thought involved, there is no sense of progression, there is no growth. The point of an RPG is to show a progression of your character from start to finish, within limits, which allows you to do more and complex things. If we totally removed balance there would be 1 class. It would have 4 skills. Attack, Crit and Kill the thing, Shield against everything and take no damage, Heal all my Health. There would be no mana because in an unbalanced game why bother having a resource that you could run out of? The enemy would all have 10 health or less meaning the crit skill would be pointless and just there for "big numbers".

If you're playing the game and only want to one hit kill, pick up shiny things, and maybe watch a cutscene or two no RPG, DF included, is the right fit. RPG's are meant to make you think a little bit, to plan your actions, to defeat enemies that might be difficult. Even an RPG as open ended and lacking in any real sense of "balance" like Skyrim still has progression, monsters that get tougher as you level, and caps on things. Every game is balanced in some way, DF now actually is starting to follow the one it needs to.



docblade -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 10:40:47)

@Tomix I tried it and have to admit: you're right. I got fooled by the first impression. Sorry for making false assumptions

EDIT: And i have to admit that i have become a bit lazy. Maybe this is what i needed to get my char out of his routine. Thanks for this



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 11:37:44)

quote:

try it with your base class and see if you can 1 hit everything


A base class shouldn't be a OHKO machine. I even ran a few quests with a non-da weapon, non-da helm, and non-da cape. (With no other accessories applied as I had none that were non-da) to see if the class had really taken a hit due to the stat changes and had become worthless. It's not. Instead of OHKOing everything with final, it now took final plus the attack button for normal enemies. Bosses with 2000+ hp, it took about 10-13 rounds for me to beat them. That isn't out of the question for any class that isn't a Tier 3, special offer, DC, or Doom Knight to average for a boss fight.

Heck, I'm sure if I had a non-da necklace, non-da ring and non-da items that were actually close to level 80 and not around 63ish, those extra stats could have helped balance up my strength to make me a tad bit stronger.

Tl:DR; Warrior is fine with well trained stats and even equipment that is about 20 levels under what I'm at. It won't be able to OHKO bosses or some high hp enemies, but it isn't supposed to.



Mordred -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 11:51:55)

Even though I only have a lvl 76 pet at the moment, I dumped my STR for CHA, going with Chronomancer for the moment. But the day Master SoulWeaver and/or Paladin's art is revamped... It will be a glorious day indeed.

Wish I had picked up some of the lvl 80 pets in recent months. Hopefully 4 lvls won't be too significant of a BtH loss.

EDIT: Oh, I also dropped down from 60 END to 50. Still sitting comfortably ~2100 HP, so I may end up dropping it a little bit more. Maybe. Ya never know.



dragon_monster -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 12:37:03)

quote:


If you're playing the game and only want to one hit kill, pick up shiny things, and maybe watch a cutscene or two no RPG, DF included, is the right fit. RPG's are meant to make you think a little bit, to plan your actions, to defeat enemies that might be difficult. Even an RPG as open ended and lacking in any real sense of "balance" like Skyrim still has progression, monsters that get tougher as you level, and caps on things. Every game is balanced in some way, DF now actually is starting to follow the one it needs to.

Lets put it this way before the ubdate you did noticed that your level mattered for example the higher your level the higher your critical becomes and monsters even if they scale to you with more damage and health you still killed them in less turns(its not in the next level but in about 5 levels you see the difference). Was that not progression? There is still a difference now but you need more levels to see it. Now how was that bad and unbalanced. The fact that you fixed the guest dragon summoning exploit and wiz, luck and maybe cha stats is all good but its just seems that there is no reason to level up anymore.
Also warrior is even weaker now and in spite the fact that I have most classes none have so good animations warrior has. Lets not forget warrior is the weakest of all base classes especially against bosses and now it became impossible to kill even more of them with it. I told you this because I am looking from the perspective of that class only because I like his animations the most they are simple and mostly not ranged and it looks cool. And the balance you did ruined the usefulness of this class for quite a few quests and it is the base class that suffered the most in this ubdate because of the lack of defense skills.
Overall probably things are better but I am not talking overall because what happened here happened in all games I played you fix things at the sacrifice of other things and that is why I hate balance as it has to make some things worse to makes some things better.
Balance is not really balanced and never will be but its probably done to improve the experience of most player but I am not one of them I just expressed my dissapointment in this ubdate and the balance it is now hoping to be one of those vocal minorities that got what they wanted.[:D]



crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 13:02:07)

quote:

I am looking from the perspective of that class only because I like his animations the most they are simple and mostly not ranged and it looks cool.
.
Try deathknight and icebound revenant. They feel like warrior class.

quote:

And the balance you did ruined the usefulness of this class for quite a few quests and it is the base class that suffered the most in this ubdate because of the lack of defense skills.


If you checked my post at page 7 you'll see that I listed the base classes as buffed. While it is just my opinion I feel they're buffed because of the parry/dodge/block buff mainly. You miss the damage you had back then? Simple go full STR and Luck and you'll get something similar to the old times. Warrior can afford it, the base classes doesn't require wisdom.

Also You're still gaining crit as you level up. What's more the game has better progression now than before because there are 2 stats that give you damage (and CHA for non-hero factor).
Back then there were crits for high level characters but not extra progression (a lv41 character could reach the max damage given by stats like a lv80 player). Also at low levels, you had the doom weapons that were around 20 levels ahead of power. So if you ask me I feel the game has better progression now than before.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 13:12:29)

I don't understand why people are freaking out over an RPG being tweaked to feel more RPG like, yet with simpler stats than it had, a greater sense of progression because of the new stat system. Hell I can't even think of another game where you can easily get your crit rate to permanently over 70%(Not counting classes specifically for crits). That really was just absurd. If you want to have a power trip maybe find a different game? :) This really comes down to people being upset over having to think over their stats now. Just adapt to these positive changes and get used to it guys! The game feels way better now.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/26/2015 13:48:27)

quote:

Lets put it this way before the ubdate you did noticed that your level mattered for example the higher your level the higher your critical becomes and monsters even if they scale to you with more damage and health you still killed them in less turns(its not in the next level but in about 5 levels you see the difference). Was that not progression? There is still a difference now but you need more levels to see it. Now how was that bad and unbalanced. The fact that you fixed the guest dragon summoning exploit and wiz, luck and maybe cha stats is all good but its just seems that there is no reason to level up anymore.

There's a difference between progression and "overwhelming power". You had more damage than you were ever SUPPOSED to. This was meant to put you BACK onto the intended power curve. You were never supposed to have that high of a crit score, it was from players wanting battles to go faster and faster and the staff giving in to that. The entire growth rate of the game was changed, and worsened, because players wanted to OHKO things. I put a hault to that for a reason. Being able to OHKO something from level 40 onward is NOT progression. There was no reason to level up before at all. Once you got to a certain crit rate you never had to do ANYTHING again from that point on. You never needed to level, you never needed different gear. You never had to advance your character in the slightest. THAT is not progression and ignoring that fact doesn't help your argument.


quote:

Also warrior is even weaker now and in spite the fact that I have most classes none have so good animations warrior has. Lets not forget warrior is the weakest of all base classes especially against bosses and now it became impossible to kill even more of them with it. I told you this because I am looking from the perspective of that class only because I like his animations the most they are simple and mostly not ranged and it looks cool. And the balance you did ruined the usefulness of this class for quite a few quests and it is the base class that suffered the most in this ubdate because of the lack of defense skills.

Can you provide examples of where warrior is even weaker? Is it losing against every boss it could beat before now? Or is it taking more than 1 turn to beat an enemy? If it's taking more than 1 turn that doesn't mean it's weaker, Mage can take THREE turns now to beat a simple quest mob, does warrior have that? If you are training your stats and changing out equipment at least ONCE every 10 levels the answer is no. If that's where you feel warrior is weaker then all 3 base classes are now "weaker." If you are losing to bosses, which ones? What examples and data can you provide that proves that Warrior is now the worst base class? Where are your examples that prove I ruined the usefulness of the class? Just saying I did doesn't prove anything. If you want to prove that point, do so. Run tests using base warrior, base mage, and base rogue against a bunch of enemies. Have them use the same stat layout. Str or Dex or Int, based on which class, then the same amount of End or Wis or Luk or Cha. Go run tests where they all are able to equally shine and return with your results. Until you can prove, with data and not a feeling that something is weaker, you don't have an argument. Docblade proved that point recently. He assumed that war waves would take longer, when he actually tried he saw they didn't. Until you can prove your point simply saying I ruined things doesn't hold any merit. PROVE I did. Use math. Test things.

quote:

Overall probably things are better but I am not talking overall because what happened here happened in all games I played you fix things at the sacrifice of other things and that is why I hate balance as it has to make some things worse to makes some things better.

What did I sacrifice? A stat that should never have gotten as far out of control as it did? I fixed an issue. How did I sacrifice anything, other than player damage they were never supposed to have to begin with?

quote:

Balance is not really balanced and never will be

Please back this up with facts, data, and testing.

quote:

but its probably done to improve the experience of most player but I am not one of them I just expressed my dissapointment in this ubdate and the balance it is now hoping to be one of those vocal minorities that got what they wanted.

It's fine to be disappointed and express it, but you can't call someone out, say they ruined things, and then not try and defend your argument with anything more than words. You cannot use feelings to justify something. Use results.



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