RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/9/2015 17:58:18)

mmm If what you want is an enemy with decent m/p/m (20+ each) then try Tomix at Tomix saga finale part 2 book 3 ravenloss. It's a durable boss if you play it on extreme.
If you bosses with defensive skills, Manacrest is the only one that comes into my mind right now.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/9/2015 18:22:11)

quote:

How's that?

There are a few older items that have REALLY high Darkness res on them. When you start chaining them, even if they aren't close to your level you ended up getting around...101ish I believe? It was something close to that.

quote:

E: Also, since you're apparently now working more on the "fininshed" stuff, any chance of adding a "Saved Item Set" button, so that you don't have to equip each item individually, or re-logging in, whenever coming from a quest where you rode your dragon or played someone else?

That's something we're trying to do. The issue with that is the current "saved" slots are actually something DB side. (It's why if you end up saving a piece of equipment that somehow breaks your character I can manually take it off for you.) The "shown" setup doesn't actually work that way. It just loads the item's .swf without actually calling the item ID to "equip" it, which is why you can get specials to go off on your "shown" equipment. I'm trying to see if I can save that without having to ask Rolith or someone to add in another DB save space for Weapon/Helm/Cap "shown" items.

quote:

That, and the fact that resistances and status effects don't somehow fit in the same section (there isn't even a scrollbar), are possibly my biggest annoyances in this great game that I still play even in my 20s.

Also something I'm trying to fit in. The way the box for that is setup makes it difficult. It wasn't actually intended to handle all the elements and statuses we have now. It was built to handle the "base" elements and a few status, kinda like how AQ works. Because of that I need to find a work around to either get a scroll bar working on there properly or, the easier option, totally redesign that panel from the ground up to make it actually look better.

quote:

Well Ash, I have tested Crit and Bonus vs low defense at least, and if anything Crit's giving higher chances than it should, though the variation is small enough given the sample size that I wouldn't assume any such bias; I hit the Mega Junkyard Driller 1000 times across 10 battles (conveniently, he consistently lasts just over 100 turns for me with DL's base weapon equipped!), with 200 Luk, 31 base Crit (so 41 total) and 46 base Bonus (54 total) vs his 5 Melee defense, and I got a miss rate of 1% (9 misses), non-crit rate of 52% (523) and crit rate of 47% (468). Assuming that it's still supposed to be possible to miss up until 100 Bonus, all these numbers seem to fit expectations well enough.

The crit part is mostly due to it being only a single roll. There's a bit of variation there due to it being an RNG but less than if it's trying to counter rolls. The issues only seem to crop up when you have multiple sequential rolls as happens in hit/miss calcs. The more you add into the number rolls the more oddly it behaves, especially when you start adding in multiple amounts into those multiple rolls. If it's only having to roll one against the other, like your high Bonus vs very low singular defense stat it usually works well, but it starts really wonking out when you lump M/P/M base on type and THEN throw in the 3 B/P/D AND the base Miss chance into the mix. You still can have very odd situations even with a simple 1v1 stat roll, case being that 99 Bonus but missed 4 Melee that I mentioned but it really only gets wonky when you move into the 1v2 or all the way up to the 1v5's . Bonus also does indeed have a chance to miss up to 99.

quote:

What I didn't test though, because it would've been too hectic, is his hit-rate against me, with my base 46 Melee (56 total)/20 Parry/27 Dodge/22 Block. I know from how little I had to use my heal that he was missing the vast majority of the time, but I don't know the percentage and I won't be doing that again very soon. I'd also like to test my own hit rate against higher-defense enemies first, but I need to find somewhere conducive to that test before I can (any suggestions, anyone?). :/

Something to keep in mind as well is the Driller and the Cola both have no Bonus. That skews things the other direction because you have a MUCH higher chance to have an attack miss when they have non versus a monster that has a decent amount. I'm planning on updating the Doom Crawler series to make it a viable farming spot and when I do he'll have bonus lopped into his amount so that may end up being a better place to gauge things at since he'll be very structured defense wise.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 6:59:08)

quote:

The crit part is mostly due to it being only a single roll. There's a bit of variation there due to it being an RNG but less than if it's trying to counter rolls. The issues only seem to crop up when you have multiple sequential rolls as happens in hit/miss calcs. The more you add into the number rolls the more oddly it behaves, especially when you start adding in multiple amounts into those multiple rolls. If it's only having to roll one against the other, like your high Bonus vs very low singular defense stat it usually works well, but it starts really wonking out when you lump M/P/M base on type and THEN throw in the 3 B/P/D AND the base Miss chance into the mix. You still can have very odd situations even with a simple 1v1 stat roll, case being that 99 Bonus but missed 4 Melee that I mentioned but it really only gets wonky when you move into the 1v2 or all the way up to the 1v5's . Bonus also does indeed have a chance to miss up to 99.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned that I wanted to test my hit-rate against good defense next, so I can see what sort of shenanigans will happen there. crabpeople's suggestion of Tomix looks like it should work very well for both that and testing my defenses, with his 30 MPM/10 PDB and 40 Bonus.



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 8:22:21)

i remember rolith making a cycle of 1mil or so attacks and his crits were after all this as much as his crit chance. so mb it was just your luck then.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 15:22:05)

Of course. As I said:
quote:

though the variation is small enough given the sample size that I wouldn't assume any such bias


The reason I said that it's higher if anything is not that I think it is higher, but because Ash has said that my evaluations of the offensive power of Luk vs Str/Dex/Int are incorrect because it doesn't play out that way in-game; from my testing I see no evidence of any bias one way or the other, so Crit chance really does seem to be exactly what it says, thus Luk really is pretty much the same offensively as Str/Dex/Int, just less stable (which is neither good nor bad, as it helps you just as often as it harms you). That being the case, I stand behind my evaluation of Luk being superior as a character stat (but no, I haven't and won't say that it's "the best," just better than Str/Dex/Int until you cap your Crit at 50), since it's more versatile (applies to all weapons) and also has Bonus and Defense, however negligible they may be. On that note:

I did another 1k hits test, against Tomix as crabpeople suggested. As I said in my last post, he has 30 MPM/10 PDB and 40 Bonus, vs my 46+10 Magic/20 Parry/27 Dodge/22 Block and 46+8 Bonus. Since he doesn't always attack so it wouldn't be too hectic, I recorded both my attacks and his this time. The results are:

For me, much the same as with the Driller: Miss rate of 1% (8), non-Crit rate of 61% (615), Crit rate of 38% (384). As I understand it, his higher defenses are essentially irrelevant since my Bonus is still higher than all of them, so this is again as expected but I wanted to make sure it would actually work that way. So it seems that Bonus as an offensive stat is the same as it ever was; not much use most of the time, since enemies don't have nearly high enough defenses unless they have a shield up. I'm curious to test my Bonus against a shielding enemy, but with the sporadic nature of shield use, that'd be quite a long test...

For Tomix though, the shenanigans start to show up: He had a miss rate of 4% (42), so a hit rate of 96% (958). Now, I don't know whether his attack has any extra Bonus added, but if it doesn't then that means he had a miss rate of only 4% against 16 Magic defense (my 56 - his 40 Bonus, with the other defenses all reduced to 0), which is frankly a huge discrepancy... Ash, can you confirm whether he has any extra Bonus on that attack or would it be too much of a hassle? Luk's defense not functioning for some reason would also fit the numbers, so that might be something to look into just to be safe.

In any case, I think my next test is going to be against Tomix again but with lower Bonus so I can see whether this holds true on my own attacks (i.e., a crude way of testing if it's a problem with my Luk) and at varying amounts of effective defense; maybe with 10 Bonus and with 20 and see what the differences are. I would like to raise my defense somewhat as well and see what sort of difference that makes, but I'll need to look into what items to use for that since I've always liked M/P/M so I've got quite a bit of it.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 15:29:36)

He has no extra bonus added. The 40 he has is the 40 he uses. The variance you're seeing is the same I saw in testing.

It also starts really wobbling when you get around 55ish M/P/M or 70 B/P/D.



Emrys -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 17:55:09)

this is definitely low down on the priority list and you might not want to fix this at all, but I noticed that the background when you log in isn't the same as the one on the loading screen for the session



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 18:05:26)

should they be?



Emrys -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 18:11:38)

I don't know, but didn't they used be?



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/10/2015 18:17:31)

@Emrys

If I had to guess they're supposed to be different for the log-in screen and the character select page. The login screen is a character based background, while the character select page is an environment background. They probably just slipped it in during the UI change. [;)]



Lance55 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/11/2015 21:47:24)

Do armors/weapons have additional stat modifiers? I'm asking because my Guardian has 40 int but is still doing +1 of the staff's base damage.

Also can someone change the UI so that the ends of the XP bars aren't covered?



Branl -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 15:36:52)

Yikes! I go on hiatus from playing this game for 3 years and this happens!
Alot of change to adjust to, but I'm not overly worried about it, and if it makes the game tougher I'm all for it.
The game (along with AQ) being too easy was the reason why I quit playing.



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 17:17:50)

Is it possible to add a way for us to tell how far off we are from lvling up like "50000/100000 (50%)" I find it annoying when the red bar has gone so far that the papper covers it's progress and then I end up doing a few mre ways and I still haven't lvled up. And I would also like it added for general us. I always have these option up in AQ whenever I play that. Gives you a basic idea on how much you need between each lvl and how long it might take you to lvl.



plue344 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 17:56:58)

@Adel, if you click your character's name in the game, right at the bottom of the popup sheet will show you your current exp and needed exp to lvl up.



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 18:48:53)

Well still if it was out in the visable it would be nice to like in the center of the red xp bar just so that we see it at all time if we wished, with a turn off button for those who doesn't which to see it.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 18:50:52)

quote:

Do armors/weapons have additional stat modifiers? I'm asking because my Guardian has 40 int but is still doing +1 of the staff's base damage.


Guardian is using very old coding that multiples the weapon's Min and Max. That causes it to have issues. The same thing happened to ChickenCow which I had to change how that processed damage amounts. Since Guardian is up for a revamp which will fix that issue it's not a huge priority but I will try to push up getting the art fixed to get that issue fixed.



Puma -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 20:21:35)

So, as a cryptic, would I see much benefit switching over from Dex to luk? From what I can tell my hits will land more often and I will have better crit overall right? While I find them useful, would dumping all wis into luk be viable? Level 30 btw.

Also what would be the likelihood of cry getting a buff? Nothing major, just making the normal, rapid, and stun attack hit 3, 6, and 2 times respectively (obv for the same total dmg they currently deal). For such a critical focused (hell just for being the epitome of the rogue) class I think that would be more reasonable, and having a 1 hit stun move is more of a hinderance at this point... I understand it's not urgent, but I don't see why a beefed up warrior class hits so much more often than a beefed up rogue class.



Branl -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 20:22:51)

Trying out an Annihilator build (Cryptic with 200 Luk and 195 Dex)
It works... extremely well, and to get around the low MP, I use a pet dragon with nothing but points in Protection so I can get respectable mp regain without wasting Mana Potions.
I don't feel it's too terribly op, due to the low hp I have to deal with to maintain the damage and dodge I get.

And using classes like DmK or KA is pretty much a pipe dream with 0 Wis.

@Puma
Until you get a Pet Dragon with only 200 in protection, you can't drop Wis.
You can switch points from Dex to Luk if you want, your damage won't be as high as with Dex, but you can definitely do that.



Puma -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 20:44:49)

Oh no I meant Dex not wis sorry.

have you noticed attacks landing on you less at all?



Branl -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/14/2015 21:25:56)

When I trained my Luck? Sort of, I can actually get dodges before using any dodge skills.
It doesn't happen too terribly often, which is why I still say Main Damage Stat> Luck
If Luck went beyond the 50% cap then that would be another story....

@Ash
Can the Rings in Rena's shop be changed to become the Fiesta! type items that you mentioned in the op with higher leveled versions of the rings?
As they are right now... they're rather useless, and looking at the stats they seem to be leaning towards that item type anyway...



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/15/2015 3:12:05)

@Puma - As has been discussed quite a lot over the last few pages, Luk is roughly equal to the damage stats (Str/Dex/Int) in terms of average damage, and also has the added Bonus and defense. However, it's quite a bit worse for Cryptic than anyone else since they'll often have much higher base Crit; with the Crit passive maxed my character would have about 5% more damage if I switched from Luk to Dex, while with any other class the difference is less than 2%. And that's not to mention that with the passive maxed and Illusionary Veil up you can reach more than 100% Crit (around 103% is probably the max right now), making any Crit from Luk you have above that much less effective (that'd be about 60 Luk in the case of 3 extra %), since most of its damage increase comes from that Crit.

So, all that considered, Cryptic is probably the only class I wouldn't recommend switching to Luk on; you still could, if you want the extra defense (however as Ash has said and my last test seemed to agree with, it's not going to make a huge difference as defense rolls are weird) but for damage Dex is superior.



Kaokozen -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/15/2015 5:10:42)

Can you guys lower the scroll endings on the bottom part of the screen? They block the exp bar a bit (I may be sounding a little bit OCD, but winning most battles/quests give only small rises to the exp bar so I'd like to see as much of that as I can)



Branl -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/15/2015 7:53:21)

@Sakurai
I'm pretty sure that just means you stack less crit...



Puma -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/16/2015 13:24:29)

Frick frack. I was hoping to get something of a legit rogue class this time around. Bad enough cry doesnt already hit 4-8 times per turn like it should, but now luk isnt useful. Ugh, I may as well just be a warrior.



Adel -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (3/16/2015 14:29:55)

Luck is more usefull now acutally....



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