RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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Lord Noonien Soong -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:10:49)

Still have yet to see the losses of my gear


My reaction to the new UI: I see trees of green...



Chewy905 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:11:47)

The scythe symbol is a legit scythe im so happy!



Dracojan -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:12:27)

its all really nice.

i have a few questions:
does luk give crit (like items) or direct crit chance. (just making sure :D)
what kind of evasion does luk give and how does it stack with already existing defences (mpm and pdb)

on the defences, you said that after 100mpm or 200pdb the enemy/player will auto miss. will this be true if the enemy has thousands of bonus like dr when. how will it interact with skills that shouldnt miss?
do parry, dodge and block each increase evasion by 1% for each 2 stat points? is the game checking each stat one after the other? if i have 2 parry, 2 dodge and 2 block, what would be my evasion chance?


also you can just add % after crit on the char panel. so it looks like "Crit: 40%"



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:14:35)

The Wiz hit seems like a HUGE hit, not a small one. I have 99 Wiz, and 103 END, yet my HP is 2075, and my MP is 930. Which by using any basic quest and a higher tier class you'll be lucky if you make it out of a newer quest with much MP left, especially after the crit nerf.

Though I can live with that, till I saw you're nerfing items now too. That was a bit much in my book, and what's worse is we have no idea what will be what now. Will we have to go out and farm just loads of stuff because something we had is now totally worthless. Which case then an all around build is going to suffer further because it's a mix of both rather than going full on, which doesn't seem fair. AQ a hybrid is only penalized by lacking side stats. Here we're saying you want to be balanced? Well....NO. You have to be weaker than either by another % because you don't want a full side of X or Y.

An example, Akriloth's bane IV, it's level 65 and im 74, yet I'm still using it because it provides me with a more balanced out set vs a lot of the things out there. Using this item as it is, what would be the "New" Standard for it?

Old stats are: Block +1, Crit +10, Magic Def +4, Pierce Def +4, Melee Def +4, WIS +7, END +7, LUK +10, INT +9, DEX +9, STR +9, Bonus +6, Health -3, Immobility +5, Ice +10, Fire +10

Since this seems perfect like an example of what will be on the chopping block.



billyliu -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:14:39)

I don't really like the new interface... reminds me of AQ. Also, can we decrease the amount of round bubbles at the edges of buttons? It's rather disgusting...

The stat change seems cool, though. Now after all these years of playing I can finally figure out how much I can hit.

But please do something about the buttons!



ShimmerSoul -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:16:42)

You occasionally have to think to win some battles now.

DF IS OFFICIALLY RUINED. D:

...It does make me sad that there will probably be some reactions exactly like that, but I like these changes, for the most part. True, crit finally got knocked off that solid gold pedestal it used to arrogantly sit upon, but even with the changes, I have a not-unreasonable 37 crit with decent equips. Critical hits are now a special surprise gift instead of a mundane fact of life. :p

Never mind the fact that defense stats got a humungous buff. Insane dodge-based annihilator builds are now possible? Huzzah!



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:21:48)

Shimmer: Defense will be hit soon. Items are being hit to be inline with level and an average, also if it's a mid-ground aka all over(balanced) stat style item you will be taking even more penalty for it. So while it seems like it got a huge buff, and it did in a way you'll also see it being dropped too.



Side note: Does this mean Doom Knight will get looked at then? Since the new standards make it almost an impossible armor to run in quests. It's powerful but now it's just going to get half way and quit on things. Or at least if not a full looking at make the Dark Aura skill WORTH IT....I don't need to pay 62 mana, just to cut my others in half, which only saves me overall nothing if not less than nothing in a fight.



Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:28:07)

quote:


Side note: Does this mean Doom Knight will get looked at then? Since the new standards make it almost an impossible armor to run in quests. It's powerful but now it's just going to get half way and quit on things. Or at least if not a full looking at make the Dark Aura skill WORTH IT....I don't need to pay 62 mana, just to cut my others in half, which only saves me overall nothing if not less than nothing in a fight.


You'll have to figure out how to balance your mana use. Potions are useful too! :)



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:32:31)

Much like Shadow Dragon and his Akriloth's Bane, I'm still using my A-Holey Ring because of that huge boost to END and WIS at level 68.

I assume there's going to be an overhaul of items over the course of time or something. Maybe make the Sun God gear worth the money spent on it.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:35:43)

quote:

does luk give crit (like items) or direct crit chance. (just making sure :D)

Luk's crit addition is added up in the item's score in terms of calculations.
quote:

what kind of evasion does luk give and how does it stack with already existing defences (mpm and pdb)

It adds a modifier based on the calc I made in the first post and then stacks with already implemented defenses.
quote:

will this be true if the enemy has thousands of bonus like dr when. how will it interact with skills that shouldnt miss?

Dr. When and bosses like that will still override the defense cap like they did before the update. Skills that shouldn't miss still shouldn't but if they do I'll just need to tinker with the skill itself.
quote:

do parry, dodge and block each increase evasion by 1% for each 2 stat points? is the game checking each stat one after the other? if i have 2 parry, 2 dodge and 2 block, what would be my evasion chance?

They each get a chance to block so yes, they each increase the chance. That's why most "defense" skills give you multiples.
quote:

also you can just add % after crit on the char panel. so it looks like "Crit: 40%"

Working on something like that, yes. Most likely will be the next major UI update when Tomix gets more of the art done.

quote:

The Wiz hit seems like a HUGE hit, not a small one. I have 99 Wiz, and 103 END, yet my HP is 2075, and my MP is 930. Which by using any basic quest and a higher tier class you'll be lucky if you make it out of a newer quest with much MP left, especially after the crit nerf.

You mean now you have to actually plan our your Wis for your class and USE MP POTIONS??!?!?! It's almost like I planned that to happen.

quote:

Though I can live with that, till I saw you're nerfing items now too. That was a bit much in my book, and what's worse is we have no idea what will be what now. Will we have to go out and farm just loads of stuff because something we had is now totally worthless. Which case then an all around build is going to suffer further because it's a mix of both rather than going full on, which doesn't seem fair. AQ a hybrid is only penalized by lacking side stats. Here we're saying you want to be balanced? Well....NO. You have to be weaker than either by another % because you don't want a full side of X or Y.

Did I give absolute numbers yet or did I give general ideas on what it will be? Some items will be nerfed, yes, but that's not going to be the case in every situation. I'm not going to go into the new item stats because it's not time to roll those out yet. The fact of the matter is you're looking at this in the wrong light. You're trying to find every negative when you haven't seen the entire picture. People were crying foul before this that I was going to ruin the game and I didn't. I'm not going to ruin items so until those come out hold judgement.

quote:

Side note: Does this mean Doom Knight will get looked at then? Since the new standards make it almost an impossible armor to run in quests. It's powerful but now it's just going to get half way and quit on things. Or at least if not a full looking at make the Dark Aura skill WORTH IT....I don't need to pay 62 mana, just to cut my others in half, which only saves me overall nothing if not less than nothing in a fight.

It's almost as if the class that can kill almost anything in the game that isn't made to be unbeatable (even though it can kill most things that ARE unbeatable by everything else) and has a built in mana lowering skill has to now use it and potions and needs more Wis. You can still pretty much one shot ANY QUEST MONSTER with it without needing Wis though. I know because I did running through quests testing it. Rite, Rite, Rite Rite, Carve if I got low. Sometimes I didn't even need to use Rite, I just auto attacked and the scaled damage and elemental weakness just blew through things. The difference is only going to get more pronounced over time when the level cap eventually gets updated and monster health doesn't spike again but your scaling does.



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:37:56)

Weapons are only getting an average baseline, not items. So stat gains will be the same as usual, just under a new, and much improved formula. In fact, if you want to go for a balanced fight style, it is perfectly viable. All you are going to suffer is that you are not superior on any end of the spectrum compared to others but it will work. If you want to go on the high end of a certain spectrum, you can do that and it will work. The thing is that you now need to not simply max stats willy-nilly but put some thought into it. Which, I presume, not many will like to. But a RPG is a RPG. You have to think about the stats you have and use them in the appropriate situation. Worrying about going through long quest? Well that is what the mana potion levels AND simply doubling your wis if you were below 100 is for. Everything will now have a consequence from now on.

Personally, I can already see improvement in my main where I dreaded multi-battles as many times I had to take annoyingly necessary hits to get by. Now with a change centering around Dex, Luk(...Where my main character, in terms of stats, should have the worst luk of just about anyone. But hey, this causes a hilarious 50% dodge chance for me if I looked at everything correctly.), and doubling my Wis to 40, 3v1 battles are already more bearable. Now I feel like my character is more in-line I have him as. Can not take hits super well but screw it, might as well not take them in the first place.

Of course, you are going have to struggle more in certain areas compared to others but that is kind of the point of balance updates.

I will wait for a more thorough analysis once I look at this a bit more but honestly... I already see improvements.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:39:42)

Verlyus that's odd and you can see it. Even with potions doing minimum you're more likely to run out than anything else in the game. Which can be fair mind you that the armor actually made use of the skill that is there to help which since it was built in a different time when mana wasn't this short handed it's even more useless than ever before.

Dark Aura costs 62 mana currently, at 99 WIZ and level 74, I have 930 MP.

If I use Dark Aura, and then vengance i've done nothing in saving mp yet i've burned 2 turns instead of 1.
If I use Dark Aura and spikes, i've done nothing in saving MP infact i've burned MORE MP and used 2 turns instead of 1.

Adding in that things cost more turns the initial cost of Aura is steep, by a large count, saying you did nothing but cast Aura at my current it'd be 14 times. Now add in just using those moves like spikes etc, where I haven't saved MP...I'm spending more of it than it would of been to use just this skill in the 1st place. Now add in the fact our gear is nerfed crit wise, and soon to be likely nerfed otherwise as well. You're saying to me you wont look at it at all? Even though that's a point of strategic movement in the armor and is completely held back by it's cost, before and even more so now than ever?

I'm not asking boost the armors power i'm asking to look at the balance of 1 skill on it that could be made to be used vs never will be.

quote:

Did I give absolute numbers yet or did I give general ideas on what it will be? Some items will be nerfed, yes, but that's not going to be the case in every situation. I'm not going to go into the new item stats because it's not time to roll those out yet. The fact of the matter is you're looking at this in the wrong light. You're trying to find every negative when you haven't seen the entire picture. People were crying foul before this that I was going to ruin the game and I didn't. I'm not going to ruin items so until those come out hold judgement.

No im not wanting to look for all negative, or cry foul, the point was you said that those who wish to find a balanced route will take penalties for it. How much, hasn't been said yet. Though that's still in play, which is why I posted an item that I use and figured in truth would likely be one that would see some nerfage, the question was how much of a scale is it looking at? I was never really a full out go all crit person I found that a mix of good defense and usable amount fit will, but now im not so sure that way is worth it now is why.



AugustoCP -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:46:07)

I'd like to point out that most of the new armors will be simply impossible to use for low level players, due to mana costs.

Which would be yet one more thing to scare them away from the game.



I'm not saying the rest of the update was bad. I mean, it annoyed be, but that's because I was used to being overpowered. But, from an impartial point of view, the WIS neft simply makes no sense.



DarkLore -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:46:31)

were monster hp values lowered or increased accordingly? I didn't check yet.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:47:23)

The Wiz nerf makes some sense, the higher armors are meant to be that higher stuff, though define new armors augusto.



Dragonknight315 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:47:46)

As someone who loved playing with a 70% Crit rate DmK with tons of mana, I am actually impressed with this update. The change of stats means that you have to be smart with your game play. The art is GORGEOUS, too! However, I kinda wish the scroll on the bottom of the screen along with the character/monster info was a bit darker, but that's just me nitpicking. This update really makes Dragonfable feel like an RPG.



AugustoCP -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:51:04)

Riftwalker, for one. KA, for another one(not new, but fits my point).


By the way, KA's description should be changed, I doubt a Lv 40 would have enough mana to use it properly now.



The ErosionSeeker -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:51:20)

As much as I like the mainstat updates, having it be x/10 rounded down instead of x/10 rounded up feels like it potentially shafts new players who equip items with +2 STR and receive no change. Not sure if this was just a mandatory thing for it to go through, but I really feel that it should be considered.


The WIS nerf is also kind of heavy, the main issue with it is that every level up gives +20 HP / +5 MP, while END is +5 HP WIS was +10 MP.
Would it be balanced for every level to give +10 MP instead? At the very least, it's less messy than having WIS be +7 MP or something.

Crit nerf was inevitable, but fine. Those days of getting more crits than noncrits needed to end eventually, and this at least puts autocrit skills into a higher light than before.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:52:31)

Riftwalker is a class for higher levels and so is KA, for a newer player they aren't really meant to be used. Though I don't know if a level 40 could use it or not, I know it was level 40 could use it semi well and it was meant to go up from that.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:56:03)

quote:

But, from an impartial point of view, the WIS neft simply makes no sense.

It was to make you actually think about your class mana costs, plan a bit, and use things at your disposal like heal pads and MP Potions. That's the point that should be noticed in all this, people weren't having to think about anything beyond "Monster is X element". The most they had to do was pick a weapon that was -Y on the opponent and go to town. No, you might not be able to use a class the instant you could unlock it, but if you look most of the lower level storyline classes don't have ridiculous mana costs. (Even the ones I revamped) Only DC and Tier 3's do which you should be at least level 40 which they warn you about. Ideally you should be closer to 60 or 70 to use them.

As soon as I work out the couple of small bugs that worked their way in that weren't there in testing I'm going to be working on fixing the bugs in the MP Potion training as well as making it a bit easier to train so it's akin to HP Potion training. That should also help alleviate a bit of this "I don't have enough Wis!"

quote:

As much as I like the mainstat updates, having it be x/10 rounded down instead of x/10 rounded up feels like it potentially shafts new players who equip items with +2 STR and receive no change. Not sure if this was just a mandatory thing for it to go through, but I really feel that it should be considered.

It's the way the engine needed to round things for it to properly implement then. The old formula did the same thing.

quote:

The WIS nerf is also kind of heavy, the main issue with it is that every level up gives +20 HP / +5 MP, while END is +5 HP WIS was +10 MP.
Would it be balanced for every level to give +10 MP instead? At the very least, it's less messy than having WIS be +7 MP or something.

That would also put it closer to where it was. If after the MP training is fixed and ALL levels are still having issues, not "I don't like this" but actually can't complete quests, then we'll adjust that. We spent time going through quests with guests, without guests, in MP intensive armors, in low MP cost armors, and tested this to make sure you could get through quests. Sometimes we got unlucky and had to use the heal pad in a quest, other times we got through with plenty of mana to spare. It's all in utilizing everything in the quest. If you have a heal pad you may have to go back and use it.



The Hollow Soul -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 20:57:30)

I have to actually think in some battles now instead of OHKOing everything? 0/10 for new update.

But on a serious note, the WIS change is something I figured was on the way or at least some form of it. Ash has said he won't mess around with DmK too much to lessen the powerful blow of it, but messing with the stats to allow it to still be a powerhouse, but not be betting impossible things is a great way to keep it best, but not such a OP beast on everything in the game. I'm sure DmK wasn't the only reason he did this. MP was overly stockpile-able in game before this update where if you played your cards right with every class you'd never run out.

I haven't had the time to get super down and into the new stats, but I can't wait to be able to mess around with them.



Pedrofire -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 21:01:08)

Tons of changes, and I think they're all for the better, the harsh truth is that we were far too OP for our own good and this update helped bring things into the balance.

What I LOVE the most is the fact that different items will have different roles! You have no idea how excited this makes me Ash, and I know it'll take time to implement, but it is a phenomenal change that'll breathe new life into our playstyles, I can't thank you enough [:D]

I do have a question about LUK that I didn't think had a clear enough answer, will every 20 LUK increase crit % by 1, or does it behave like current weapon crit (So we'd need 40 LUK to get 1% extra crit chance)? And does it round up or down?

Big props to Tomix for the art update, everything I've seen looks great!



RyuMandruleanu -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 21:01:20)

Welp, this will be fun. Time to figure out if/how these stat changes affect best weapons/accessories for my guides. RIP free time for me.

Visually I'm loving the new looks, though kind of iffy about the gold frame around all the skill buttons



Darius -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 21:02:51)

Are there any plans to increase the potion cap outside of certain classes and the Cloak Scrap? Or maybe add potion refill chests to quests, like the 100-room ninja forest from a few weeks ago?



Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/23/2015 21:03:11)

quote:

I do have a question about LUK that I didn't think had a clear enough answer, will every 20 LUK increase crit % by 1, or does it behave like current weapon crit (So we'd need 40 LUK to get 1% extra crit chance)? And does it round up or down?

Every 20 luck will add +1 crit chance to the same pool as items. So if you have 30 Crit from items and 20 luck you'd have 31% chance to crit. It just doesn't show up next to the crit score like I want it to...yet. That's coming eventually though.

quote:

Are there any plans to increase the potion cap outside of certain classes and the Cloak Scrap? Or maybe add potion refill chests to quests, like the 100-room ninja forest from a few weeks ago?

We were discussing it to go along with the MP potion training fixes. Those along with possibly an "HP/MP" potion you could purchase or other types that you use from your inventory screen.



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