RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (Full Version)

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megakyle777 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 12:47:35)

Tomix, my main question is will it lock off the other classes? I don't think that a ood idea for the dualfold reasons that A you are locking off 3 classes for one, and B you lock off a DC class which people pay cash for.



Ash -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 12:50:46)

The key word is optional. You're making that choice to cut yourself off from those classes. If you don't wish to, then don't pick it if it is implemented.



megakyle777 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 13:05:35)

It just seems like a bad choice from a gameplay perspective. You lock yourself from one Tier 2 class and 2 Tier 3 classes for 1 Tier 3 class. There's no benefit aside from evil RP. And one being DC adds it's own issues.



Ash -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 13:28:02)

And you're missing the point. It's a CHOICE. You're supposed to have a consequence to it. If you like the class and are ok with giving up the others then you CHOOSE to pick it. If you don't you get a free pass to not have it anymore. Yes, you're giving up other classes and honestly we need to do more things like that. You shouldn't always have access to everything even IF it's a DC class. Sometimes you should have to make a choice.



Glerax -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 14:11:11)

Just get fleshweaver on a secondary character and stay normal for your main.



Brasca123 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:10:10)

so, supposing geo gives the green light for it, let me suggest something

to avoid issues with saved classes make it not available for people that gave SW, MSW and CW as their saved classes, since they would kinda still have access to the locked class
quote:

You shouldn't always have access to everything even IF it's a DC class. Sometimes you should have to make a choice.

well, but what would happen if the person already has CW when he unlocks FW? specially because tomix said it could be undone once, giving the DC back would be awkward since you could just undo it, but not giving them back would mean wasted DC... that becomes strange, i guess items that cost IRL money are complicated to deal with, since people would end up not receiving what they actually paid for (which ended up making ash allow 2 versions of DmK exist)

In that case we'd write in a command that locks it from being equipped if you've unlocked and used FW and prevents you from buying it otherwise. If you haven't or you choose the reset option you then get to purchase it again. It will also have GIANT LETTERS IN GAME IN A POPUP LIKE THIS THAT YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY READ so no one can ever say "you didn't warn me!" You'll be warned, and warned, and warned again and then it's on YOU if you choose to still follow it. ~Ash



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:13:58)

fleshweaver seems like a test, not a moral one just gamewise, kinda like the 13th war we fought earlier, choice, consequence, etc.

If fleshweaver works out, would there be more classes like it?
Not evil, but CHOICE based?
Thats what i feel this may lead to, choice based decisions that have effects and consequences, allow content but cut off other content.

I understand (and kinda guessed) that we wouldnt murder Aegis directly (this being DF and whatnot), however the point remains, it is a choice, perhaps it would be a button, Choice A) Aegis lives, Choice B) Aegis dies.
Perhaps your character wont murder him directly but as a player, as a choice.......you will, there is no sugar coating that.

Why does no one cover it in chocolate? why is it always sugar?

Pay the price, "Devour" Aegis for power, cut yourself off from other classes and obtain Fleshweaver, it seems fair.
We will have to wait and see what happens, i just hope this quells evil roleplayers...for now.



Shadows Morgenstern -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:28:43)

*sigh* I still think this is a seriously bad idea... Yeah it's a choice, but making the 'evil' choice in DF always results in a non standard game over.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:34:55)

Hooray, confirmation :D

Geo still has to approve it so "maybe" is the most confirmation you have right now. ~Ash

Post Ash-Edit Edit: Well, you and Tomix are willing to allow the idea, so you have to have some sort of plan for introducing the class to the canon :3

Can we discuss the class itself now? Like whether it will be offensive/defensive, exactly what abilities we would like to see? Cause i have been wanting a literal ham move ever since it was suggested at some point in this thread.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:35:22)

@Shadows Morgenstern

I know. i know, let them have there fun.......for now.

On the other hand doesnt the 1 time free undoing chance kinda cheapen the consequence of choice?
Dont want to sound ungrateful or anything but when we first heard it, we were led to believe it would be one of those "Warning once you do this you CANT undo it" kinda choices.
I understand that someone may want to undo that choice, but wouldnt it be more interesting if we were allowed to do 1 quest with the fleshweaver armor and then allowed to chose?
That way we would be able to understand how the armor works and make the choice, so that way you know what your getting into, it would also make the consequences of choice a lot more enthralling.



@Chaoshaper
honestly im hoping its defensive, it makes sense given the fact that Aegis is defensive and what Aegis means, etc. etc, witty banter.

As for Roirr who knows how many Souls he has consumed to get to that level of power, so it would be very logical if fleshweaver was more defensive than anything.
I'm also hoping all youse fleshweavers look like murks or murklike beings....or something in a reddish hue?



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 15:50:13)

The reset button should only be available if you have ChaosWeaver. I think that if you choose to reset with the ChaosWeaver it should put you on the "don't eat Aegis" path. I also think that you shouldn't be able to change your decision from the "don't eat Aegis" path because being able to change your decision in any event that doesn't involve you losing access to a DC armor or other paid content would make the choice less meaningful.


@Monstervet
They could have Vaaloir share a skillset with the FleshWeaver class for later quests in his saga, which would let you know how the armors going to work without creating any form of plot-hole.



Chaoshaper -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 16:39:09)

If the reset is one time only, someone who picked it but then realized they prefered the other armors can go back. As long as it's one time only, I'm fine with it.

I feel like it should be defensive, maybe with a few health cost abilities? Like, more powerful than average and cost a considerable portion of your life force



soulus42 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 18:57:16)

Now that we know, should the class get the green light from Geo, that there will be a one time reset if one would like to stop being a fleshweaver, I just want to know the conversation the player and Aegis will have about the ordeal. I doubt it will be comical but I can imagine it being funny. (probably won't be too happy that he was, metaphorically speaking, regurgitated)

Aegis "...You ate me."
Hero "I know.. I'm sorry..."
Aegis "You ate me..."
Hero "I said I'm sorry!"
Aegis "You ate me!"
Hero "Yes, I did, we've established that. Now let's pretend that never happened... okay?"
Aegis "Sure, let me just pretend that my good friend didn't eat me and eventually spat me back out! Do you even know what that's like? Because let me tell you, it was not pretty! At all! And another thing-"
Hero "I'll give you this popsicle if you pretend I never ate you."
Aegis "...okay fine."



Brasca123 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 21:37:20)

from what i understood of tomix post it will be explained by the lore why we can go back on the choice of becoming a FW, if it's like this, then i'm fine with it, as long as it makes sense within the lore anything the staff wants to do is fine... even if i'm still against FW

well, considering aegis is defensive and ice based i assume FW would be like it, though we know basically nothing about FW, so it could change i guess



Christophoses -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/28/2015 23:11:49)

@Tomix

OMG! Thank you so much for considering the class!

@Ash

Multiple people have been trying to convince those who hate Fleshweaver that the choice is optional for at least 3 weeks. The majority understand, but somehow there are some people who always go back to the idea of "killing" Aegis as an unthinkable atrocity and that the class should never exist.



Doomful Lord -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 0:41:16)

So, after thinking over that Chaosweaver is something we will have I have a few different thoughts on the matter. Though I have sort of changed my mind of if I were to use Fleshweaver if it were to become a thing in that I'd really just be satisfied with the other fields though and Chaosweaver seems divine to me and I will definitely buy it, I have some DCs right now saved just for it. However I am still on the side that Fleshweaver should probably not be a thing, I like choices but as I still said it seems out of character and we do have a personality set to our character and I think it could throw off the narrative for a lot of quests. However it still brings up the point of how it'd be done IN narrative, which we don't know and is just my speculation. As well on top of all of this I'd really just want to know continuity. If you told me it'd be non-canon, especially for like future quests or had much more limited effects outside of blocking other classes I'd be much more for it, or at least the option of it. I do think it can be done well, or at least in a fashion that's fair for everyone, but I'll remain skeptical not because I don't trust the staff but it's how I am as policy and for the sake of discussion.

In really short my most major issue is this is just speculation and to make a truly informed decision just requires more information on the full ramifications and whether or not they are fair to everyone and how large effects they have, at least if you were asking for my opinion. Also chaosweaver is cooler.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 7:47:36)

quote:

fleshweaver seems like a test, not a moral one just gamewise, kinda like the 13th war we fought earlier, choice, consequence, etc.

If fleshweaver works out, would there be more classes like it?
Not evil, but CHOICE based?
Thats what i feel this may lead to, choice based decisions that have effects and consequences, allow content but cut off other content.


One can only hope; Ash did say after all that it's something that should happen more often and so far the feedback is that people want it, in this case anyway.

As for the sugar-coating stuff, you're still making too many assumptions about it. We don't know any details whatsoever about what exactly will happen; neither you nor I nor presumably anyone else who's not a staff member knows whether what happens will be "evil" or not. You're still treating this as vanilla vs chocolate, when we actually don't even know the flavor yet. xP



crabpeople -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 8:13:37)

I'm with Sakurai. As I mentioned days ago, We don't know the When and the How about this choice. Also the "you can regret once" is a nice bonus in case you don't like FW or you miss the other weaving classes (in case you're only using 1 character). And yeah I'm with Ash that as a RPG that DF is, more choice based stuff should be released in the future. Even if it locks a small part of the content.

About FW class. I'd prefer it to be a defensive class. There's not many defensive and combo classes atm. A t3 defensive class like DragonLord but special in it's own way. Sounds promising if it becomes real thing (FW is not 100% confirmed yet).





VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 8:32:54)

I hope that it does lock off all Weaver classes be it DC or NonDC as it would be one of the things that would force the player to Actually think about their choice, more so if the fw class was pure defense with a sprinkling of offensives skill here and there and locked as Ice/evil only.

instead a "...." and click as fw.

but actual real life & in game consequences for their actions and if that means no DC only armor then it's the player's choice and fault that they no longer have access to anything that have to do with weaver in it.

don't like the idea of locking out so much then don't become a fw, if you want the 'power' of the fw then suck it up and deal with the consequences of your choice.

it is as simple as that.

though later on I can see people(not saying any of you) starting cry about how they can't do this or that and want to have access to it all even with the warning given them.

It has been seen many times in many different games and DF wouldn't be the first nor the last.





rytis155 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 8:43:31)

quote:

All I can say, within the context, you won't be "murdering" Aegis.

Then the idea I had earlier could actually work:
quote:

consumption of Aegis would kind of fuse him with our character, meaning he would be IN our flesh, allowing to weave with it.


VJ, crabpeople, Sakurai the Cursed: I can't agree with you more. I love games where your decisions have consequences later on (and I think that decision making is the main point of RP games). IMO, that's a good road for DF to take.



lightriftwalker122 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 8:46:03)

@ VJ i like your idea of it being element locked : Ice/Evil only. or instead Ice/ Darkness since the hero isnt evil. it wont be DC since if it gets released it will be Canon. i want it to be released.



VJ -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 9:39:30)

@lightriftwalker122

Yeah I was thinking dark/evil or dark/ice but I figured someone could come up with something better.

I don't like it but it seems the masses want it and thus may get it but I am however extremely happy if they level hefty consequences on those that chose to go the route of fw.

which cutting them off from all forms of weavers outside of fw DC or otherwise is a great choice and will make the player really decide if they want to do this and what it means if they do.

though I must say to be honest I don't think it should be able to be undone though as it cheapens everything and the player won't have to worry about the consequences of their choice even if it is only able to be undone once.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 13:50:53)

quote:

there are some people who always go back to the idea of "killing" Aegis as an unthinkable atrocity and that the class should never exist.

quote:

All I can say, within the context, you won't be "murdering" Aegis.

You are "murdering/killing" Aegis, I'm pretty sure that the story will either make you eat Aegis which is in a way still killing him off, the choice of being a FW won't be a scenario like "Let Aegis Die" or "Eat Aegis Instead"

Why? Because if that scenario was followed, you just basically went off-canon on the theme of the class one of the signature skills of the SW and MSW is related to working with Aegis himself to perform the skills. So it won't make sense for a class to be able to use a skill that involves an already dead NPC, especially when the skill itself revolves around you synchronizing with said NPC (When equipped with Baltael Aventel), it doesn't matter if the guest is present or not, canon-wise it won't make sense.

So you will either "murder/kill Aegis" or "Not at all". The way the SW and MSW skill is designed just really doesn't permit for a scenario where either Aegis will be killed or you kill him yourself. The only way for this to be loopholed is that if our character finds another Soul Ally and the staff changes the skill that relates to the soul ally



Rayen -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 14:25:33)

quote:

So you will either "murder/kill Aegis" or "Not at all".


I suppose the problem is that we can't really know that at this stage. Tomix is in the unique position where he can craft the lore/mechanics of fleshweaving around the implementation of a FW class. In other words, if the green light is given, he can make up whatever he wants about FW'ing to make it work storyline-wise and option-wise, without it being murder or anything.

We've only had Roirr as an example of a FW, so as far as we know, he's actually got the wrong idea about FW'ing and that it can be achieved in other ways. My guess as to what FW'ing actually is, is that it's a sort of permanent soul-synch. where the souls of the spirit and the person get...combined. This might explain some of the physiological changes caused in Roirr - his soul is no longer just his own, so the shell of his body/his flesh is losing its sense of self-identity.

Anyway, if it IS like a permanent soul synchronisation, the hero becoming a FW could be put down to a quest, where Aegis gets the idea to try some sort of weird new SW'ing thing and you can either agree to try it out or not. Since we know that SW'ing can be very dangerous and accidents definitely do happen <looks at Tomix>, something could go horribly wrong with the weaving technique and Aegis's soul gets trapped in our body permanently. Perhaps we'd even be able to talk to him still, the way the Roirr is talking to Vaal currently, and rather than dead (since we didn't intentionally eat/kill him like Roirr does), we both live in a symbiotic relationship as Fleshweavers. The whole name of the art might even get changed from Fleshweaving to something less ominous. We have no idea.

Tomix did say that becoming a flesheweaver would be undo-able ONCE, so my accident idea would work in that we could go to a soulweaver and ask them to separate Aegis's soul from ours and then we'd never again make the same mistake that resulted in our former fleshweaveryness. Otherwise we could stay the way we are, with souls combined, to continue to save the world.

Nothing evil there, just a mistake that was resulted from our lack of wisdom and curiosity.

It COULD, however, be an actual evil thing, but we currently just don't know.

Mind you, I'm dead-set against Fleshweaving or a Fleshweaver class from the information we've got so far from Roirr, locking off classes and devouring Aegis in some form. As others have said...it's just not something that the hero would be able to justify doing.

If it is something as benign as a mistake that turns us into fleshweavers, or if it's actually not evil at all...then maybe I'd be ok with it being in-game. I still love having Aegis around, so I'd never become a FW, but I wouldn't be as annoyed about other monsters running around calling themselves 'heroes'.



Meloette Wells -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/29/2015 14:55:48)

Sheesh, choosing the path of a Flesh weaver makes one a monster? I still say that argument can be made for all manners of necromancy, cause you meddle with the natural order of life and death to suit your own needs. Its a dark thing, a dark art in fact, but not every user of that dark art is evil ( like the earlier mentions of vayle and the death knight duo)



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