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RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion

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2/24/2011 1:14:08   
seventy two
Member

PD, I must ask can you write short things? Joking aside you did a good job of presenting your opinion. I am slightly surprised about how exhaustive your basic economic introduction was, I think that it may be better to make that more concise, since the post is already very long(especially since you still need too add stat charts and analysis). One other thing I will note is that you mention the removal of Agility and Focus in your list but did not include any further detail within your post. And a question: What about the robots and their part in the system?

< Message edited by seventy two -- 2/24/2011 1:15:06 >
AQ MQ  Post #: 276
2/24/2011 1:25:16   
PD
Member
 

 Yeah, I tend to go a little too comprehensive on things I'm passionate about. Aside from that, I forgot to note that The Removal of Stat inflation and the equalization of stats would make Focus and Agility serve as useless in every form possible as it would no longer need to be around (Everyone and everything is statistically equal, therefore, no limiters are needed to sustain balance)

Also, I WAS gonna include robots into the system, but I didn't know where to add that piece of information into. In fact, in my view, they should be entirely removed as it is much to strong in today's metagame - Removal of such obscene advantage would give Non Variums a higher chance to win.

I'm still waiting for the staff's reaction on this. Until I do get the reaction and stance on my (well, my stuff that Xendran heavily influenced) stuff, I can only speculate what will become of my work.

< Message edited by PD -- 2/24/2011 1:26:31 >
Post #: 277
2/24/2011 5:10:07   
drinde
Member

Wouldn't reducing BL's Cooldown and adding a 2-3 Turn Cooldown to SA be better than giving reqs to both? Also maybe a Damage Cap (55-65) should be put on Multi Attacks...
DF MQ Epic  Post #: 278
2/24/2011 17:26:01   
PD
Member
 

 @Drinde: No, that would not be a good idea. Adding turn costs to luck factors would undermine the balance by throwing skill ratios off. It's just better to remove Assimilate, Blood Shield, and Shadow arts as their skill ratios are far inferior to the current skills.

Remember, you need to EQUALIZE the Skill Ratios (Equal Base Damages and Rates of increase).

< Message edited by PD -- 2/24/2011 17:27:35 >
Post #: 279
2/24/2011 19:01:18   
Master Volcon
Member

+1 for Sup's Idea :)
however... the coffee method is just as good

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AQW Epic  Post #: 280
2/24/2011 19:05:20   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@Drinde Horrid Idea.
@PD Horrible.Alot of BH use SA no way should you remove it.Blood Shiled a few Mercs use it dont remove it.Assimiliation some Mages use it dont get rid of it.
AQW Epic  Post #: 281
2/25/2011 0:27:20   
PD
Member
 

 @IsaiahTheMage... Just people a lot of people use a skill doesn't mean it should stay

Let me explain...

The removal of the 3 skills would in reality, do nothing. In fact, it would make things better. If you looked back in ED's history, you'll see that there were MANY problems with Assimilation, Shadow Arts, and Blood Shield. And In fact, people are STILL complaining about it! These skills have done NOTHING to improve the state of the game - In fact, they've only made things worse through stat requirements, which essentially, limits the optional builds everyone gets to choose from.

Now, the reason for the removal of these skills are because of their either Over-efficient, or under-efficient. In order to balance skills, you MUST fix the ratios and improvement rates.

Shadow arts as a passive means it is effective for an infinite amount of turns, which in turn, means infinite chances for increased luck factors (Block, Stun). To couple this with Bloodlust, is just obscene. The ratio is this: 0 Turn Cost for a varied amount of FREE support. The increase is subject to the Block and Stun Formulaes, hence, I say varied. And also like Re-Route, unlike Hybrid armor, this increases effectiveness as you level up (As you naturally invest more points into support as you level up). Hybrid armor does not - Rather, it loses 250% effectiveness (Effectiveness decay rate varies on dexterity invested) over 22 levels (When you max it out at level 10).

Blood Shield and Assimilate on the other hand, have different problems. They, like Hybrid Armor and Poison, are fixed at static increases - They do not improve with anything. This causes the ratio to get worse and worse over time. Although it may seem good at lower levels, they're not. Blood Shield's ratio is terrible at low AND high levels abroad.

1. It's around 280% defense boost (Effectiveness diminish rate is even worse for Blood Shield) at level 14 (Assuming you max out the skill), at the cost of 13 HP, hence, why Hybrid Armor is just the better option for defense. At lower levels, people generally have Less HP. And also, using Blood shield when you already have low total HP is a bad idea. You basically gave yourself a free loss at that scenario

2. As I said above, Like Hybrid armor, it also shares the problem of effectiveness decay. Due to the way resistance improves with Technology, if you choose to use a High technology build (Which coincidentally, correlates with +5 Focus), it's effectiveness is lowered even faster than does Hybrid armor diminish in effectiveness.

Now, as for Assimilate, it is static - It does not improve over time, and it is limited to staves only, which sadly, are mostly Energy Staves. There is overlord Staff, but that in comparison with other staves in it's level is pretty terrible. It would've been better IF it improved with stat growth - which it doesn't.

Now, look at all the problems that were CREATED by the new skills. Yeah, not worth keeping around in my opinion. They are better removed than adjusted.
Post #: 282
2/25/2011 10:15:01   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@PD But people like using those skills and people will complain about that if you do.IMO there bettter left here.SA is a ok skill.BS and Asim are both Decent BS is ok Asim is totally UPed.Not to mention this will make everyone weaker.I use SA so no I want that skill around.
AQW Epic  Post #: 283
2/25/2011 18:27:58   
PD
Member
 

 Just because people USE it does not mean it shouldn't be removed - In fact, that's a terrible reason why they should stay. They MUST be removed. It's been done in the past, and it was for the better. Epicduel Existed and was fine before the skills were there - Removing them would only revert it back to the state it was before it was nerfed, and knowing ED History, nothing was different before then.

And your reason was correct, I can say "Stat inflation is good because it benefits the Variums players who can afford to pay up every release"

And sure people will complain - In fact, People complain ALL the time when they've lost their reigns of terror.

And Blood shield is NOT fine. None of the new skills are. Prove to me that 280% effectiveness decrease (Oh, and I almost forgot the cool side effects of-13 HP and 1 turn cost!) over 20 levels is "decent".



< Message edited by PD -- 2/25/2011 18:47:28 >
Post #: 284
2/26/2011 0:02:58   
Luna_moonraider
Member

@ PD
mages have deadly aim and bludgeon to help them cover up for the lack of phy staffs. well true bludgeon has a cooldown and it is blockable but it is a % base atk and it stack well wif rage and it is a very powerful tool a mage can use if they want a strong phy atk. the new gamma bot also means mages have an extra phy atk.assimilation can be improved by just making the energy drain unblockable.
@IsaiahtheMage
lolz blood shield better than asim really. do u see merc max it out and use it if he does not get malf. can it be use as a normal shield like the energy bubble bh have? i dun think so. some bh have +21 resis when the on the energy bubble and the energy bubble is just lvl 1. true merc have hybrid armor. if the on max blood shield and switch hybrid they would have +26 resis but 2 turns and hp is wasted. i rather waste energy and 1 turn only. asim is not UP. i can mess up loads of buidls and tactics of any classes. SA is just Op before it was nerfed now it is ok. seem to be the best new skill because this game is bout luck.

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AQW Epic  Post #: 285
2/26/2011 11:51:03   
Zean Zapple
Member

The Solution! (All credits go to SUP)

Read this, and you will find the key to creating a kingdom of balance!


~ZZ

< Message edited by Zean Zapple -- 2/26/2011 12:28:08 >
Epic  Post #: 286
2/26/2011 12:37:33   
IsaiahtheMage
Member

@PD Well I guess we just wont agree.I dont see how the new skills cause any problems.

@Luna I dont see how SA is Oped its just a 10% chance.BS is better then Asimilation.It last for 5 turns.And gives -13 Energy dmg from each attack I dont see how its weak.Asim seems weak it only is good against Mercs but BH block like crazy so it be a waste against them.Also it be a waste against Mages to.So overall its weak it only works against Mercs because they cant regain any energy in battle and dont block like crazy.

< Message edited by IsaiahtheMage -- 2/26/2011 12:39:39 >
AQW Epic  Post #: 287
2/27/2011 19:40:55   
Shadronica
Member

Well ... all of us that have been here since December '09 (actually very few of us left) know full well that BH's rule December till April then Mages become OP'd again then its Mercs turn in August.

Just the way the game keeps going so that more money is obtained from everyone jumping class.

Nothing has changed except the dev's keep devising more ways for skills/stats to be used or abused to make certain classes OP'd.

SA is most definitely the most deadly of all the new skills devised, therefore giving BH's an advantage. I realise that not all BH's use it ... before anyone gets antsy and shouts "I DON'T".

I manage to use assimilate sometimes to my advantage but it is minor in comparison to BH's ability to block and deflect consistently.

I still think that the RNG is in big need of repair to bring more order and balance to this game.

Currently I have a reasonable amount of dex (75) yet still manage to be blocked by someone with 36 dex AND that person with 36 dex is still able to strike me 100%.

There is no rhyme or reason for the luck factor.

Once upon a time I could predict 98% of the time whether I would be blocked or critted but the deflects are relatively new in comparison in this game and are far more prevalent now as well.

Even sometimes when I have used Malf and then aux I have noticed that my aux has done comparitively little damage compared to normal damage without it being deflected either. In other words I have malfunctioned someone for 37 on their tech then when I have used my aux it has only done normal (pre malf) damage ... no deflects.

Why have the dev's given lower levels more chance to crit, stun, block or deflect? (not to mention first go)

I can put up with the endless cycle of class OPness but I totally hate that the RNG is not running true.

If the RNG was right ... then I would be able to make a build and use the strategy confidently to overcome the OP classes just as I did back when Gamal and Dark Avenger were the BH kings of ED.

The way I see it with the strength abusing mercs too is that even when I used a heap of dex (96) they were still more than capable of striking me at least 99%. Ridiculous!

Fix the RNG in the game first and foremost then balance the classes/stats/skills. If that is what the dev's truly wish to attain.


< Message edited by Shadronica -- 2/27/2011 20:15:55 >
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 288
2/27/2011 20:25:08   
Xendran
Member

To end all argument on HOW to balance, here it is.

All stats have equal value.
All skill trees have an equal power:cost AVERAGE

This IS the way to balance, this is not an opinion or something i am going to argue for, as anybody arguing against it needs to look up the word balance.

The issue is not figuring out what to do to balance, it is actually balancing the skills, and perhaps making small adjustments to my rage formula.
AQ DF Epic  Post #: 289
2/27/2011 20:31:13   
One Winged Angel1357
Member


 SA: truely it is the beast of the set blocks stuns right there its an all in one skill how much more needs to be said about it.

Blood Shield: Well you are stabbing yourself to ignore some damage in the long run it could be useful but if you get hit with a crit you took unnessary damage and lost one turn on the offencive

Assimilate: Well its a hit or miss skill of the worst kind, It drains Energy well so does Atom Smasher but not only does it drain more energy the weapons you can use with Atom Smasher are better. Dot try to say anything about tiers and atom smasher and Assimilate they are both Tier 4 and both easily out done by the Tier 2 EMP.

Those skills are all useless to me SA removes your chances of a fair fight(or mortally wounds them) Blood Shield has a whole in it(no one wants a holey shield) and Assimilate is just weak and blockable(not to mention really doing those Tier Four skills proud)

Honestly i think the devs should of went to the community about the Idea of the new skills and we would be having less problems with them now becuase we would only have ourselfs to blame

< Message edited by One Winged Angel1357 -- 2/27/2011 20:32:01 >

_____________________________

Name's OWA... Just OWA
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 290
2/28/2011 9:47:22   
BlueKatz
Member

So... finally I reach my alternative acc(s) at mid level (my BH at lv 27 and my Mer at lv 25, my Varium Mage of course at lv 32)

So here are current problems

Mer is way too OP. Now I'm level 25 and I have only 75 loses (10 from killing NPC lol) I'm sure (I think) people with more experience with Mer can do even better (I lose around 5% battles...)
Meanwhile, with BH, I still lose pretty much (around 10-20% battles). And Mage, I don't have time to test, but I will soon but I believe Mage will lose a lot more.

Mer is already OP at low level as I mentioned. I don't have to say again how OP Mer can be at high level because I know most people know already.

Thing here, nerf Mer!
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 291
2/28/2011 10:33:08   
Luna_moonraider
Member

ok i have done a few experiments over this month. trying f2p bh and mage 1v1. will be doing a 2v2 and 1v1 merc test when i feel like it.

firtsly i used a bh with a str build. smoke+cheapshot so i dun have to invest any support. i find that this bh build is really effective and kill almost every1 except merc wif max hybrid( at low lvls they are really anoying cause they take less dmg but my rage usually kills them if they are not str mercs). i Think f2p bh are good from lvl 1-26. once i hit 27 i started to die cause there are not many good weps. the requirments on sa and blood lust are killers for a lvl 27 f2p str bh. so we can safely say str f2p bh are oped at low to mid lvls.

secondly i used a caster build for mages. caster mages peak points are from lvl 13-26. they can 2 turn kill almost everytime. caster mages also have problems wif mercs with max hybrid at low lvls.merc usually flip thier hybrid and slowly kill me if thye have high str. high str build also kill me if they start first. once i hit 27 i started to die because people start to have higher resistance and my spells became ineffective. so we can say caster mages are oped and mid lvls.

from my test i found out that merc hybrid is really too oped at low lvls they really need to nerf hybrid at low lvls so mercs cant abuse it when they are low lvls a lvl requirment would help. but hybrid armor loses its opness when u reah higher lvls. mercs passive skill is kinda weak compared to sa,da and blud lust.

@ BlueKatz

it is true that mercs are oped at low lvls but remeber our passive is static and does not improve with anything. y should mercs be nerf why should any class be nerfed why not buff the other classes. or just put a requirment to maul and zerk that would stop 2 turn killing mercs. plus 1 thing people dun notice is that str mercs can easily lose because they have little dex. little dex means they get blocked more often. y do merc have little dex the answer is hybrid armor.

@owa
atom smasher does not increase rage when u get blocked while asim does. that is the bad point of atom but the good point bout it is it does better drain if u have loads of str or a good maul because it is % based. emp does not increase rage if u hit the person also. the only energy drain skill which increas rage is asim. well that ius what i noticed but still asim is a weak skill because of the fact its energy drain can be blocked.

AQW Epic  Post #: 292
2/28/2011 10:57:37   
BlueKatz
Member

then don't use it lol
It's still a very useful skill, sure it's weaker at high level but so fair, it's way more useful than Mage Asim...
I see no problem if Str mer use Dex or not, they has a lot of Defense? Good for them, just a problem when people keep putting point into Str instead of Dex, it's their fault, not the skill itself.
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 293
2/28/2011 12:10:13   
Luna_moonraider
Member

well hybrid armor makes mercs put more str than dex cause it has a base of +13 def if it is maxed so mercs dun quite like dex because we have hybrid. mages have da and reroute. Asim is not a passive it is a new skill if u compare asim with mercs blood shield it is a totally diffrent story. as owa said who wants a holey shield. lower dex = higher chance of getting block so str mercs are atually killing themself if the have low dex.
AQW Epic  Post #: 294
3/1/2011 9:04:09   
TurkishIncubus
Member

Here is my few balance ideas

Make Gamma bots energy atack deflectable , making it deflectable will make Tech abuser mercs less effective because they use 45 support + SA BHs always hit with Bot because they cant blocked

Add "Maul" Tech or support requirement , all +140 str mecs use Max Maul this will be a real nerf to them , i realy cant understand why Admins put dex req to Berserker they all use it at 1 lwl

Make Asim Useable with sword , Mages has alot skill require Class specific wep and Mages dont have physical staff , Mages need sword more than others and they got less skills with sword.


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Epic  Post #: 295
3/1/2011 10:11:46   
Larcell
Member

MY TOP 10:

1. Remove SA & BLOOD SHD.
2. Make Artillery Strike go to Energy Damage
3. Increase First Strike Chance ratio.
4. Give mages physical staffs.
5. Lower "Sorry, Try Again" by a %
6. Maul with 40 Tech requirement
7. Venom Strike should be able to kill.
8. EMP should be blockable OR Atom smasher & Assimilation be unblockable
9. Need a skill to nerf Support
10. Bunker Buster 10% Defense Ignore



< Message edited by Larcell -- 3/1/2011 10:12:37 >

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Epic  Post #: 296
3/2/2011 5:44:45   
Luna_moonraider
Member

@ turkish

agree wif ya on teh first 2 but the 3rd i dun quite agree. let me explain y. mages need to use staff to unlock special skills. i rather it remain as a staff skill cause i rarely see a battle mage use a staff last time but now i see more battle mage switching to staff. just make more phy staff or u can always use a phy gun or simply use bludgeon. the passive deadly aim is there for a reason not to just boost mages gun atk but to cover up the lack in phy staffs.

AQW Epic  Post #: 297
3/2/2011 8:54:30   
BlueKatz
Member

We have some skills doesn't mean we can't have a physical staff :/
AQ DF AQW Epic  Post #: 298
3/2/2011 13:10:46   
TurkishIncubus
Member

@Luna_moonraider

I had a dilemma on writing or not writing the 3rd of my idea , physical staffs will solve the problem but energy staff will completely change my build , mages should use Energy unblockables for using malf effective against BH because they block too much.
Epic  Post #: 299
3/2/2011 13:29:15   
voidance
Member

I think something that would fix some of the OPness of smoke/masacre Bh's would be to make it where the block % isnt changed after they smoke a player, meaning it is based from there dex's from the start of the match.
AQW Epic  Post #: 300
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