=ED= A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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The Doctor -> =ED= A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/20/2011 11:56:41)

A lot of things have changed in EpicDuel since I first made this thread.
Fame, the Celtic Cleaver, and so on.. so I guess I should rewrite some of this.
This is no longer just a discussion about balance between the obvious combat-related balance issues.
This is a place to talk about how ED is tipping on its balance scale as a game.

Class warfare, elitism, and entitlements are all terms that have been brought up.
It's become a debate between the "Haves," and the "Have-Nots," in a sense, though that's not quite accurate.
Some people believe that they deserve new stuff. Maybe they do; it's not up to me.
Others think that things should be left the way they are now or even reverted completely.

Some solutions proposed are ridiculous and yet others are so obvious.
My idea is to completely reassess what EpicDuel is here for.
The weapon/armour, class, and Fame systems all need to be taken into account.
That's what you're here for.

The classes are a scalene triangle in which one side is always worth a bit more than the other side.
That is because you can't divide 100% evenly by three: You get 33.333%, repeating.
Whereas if you reason the total number to not be one hundred percent, but make it Something Else...
There is always the term "1/3", but what should the Something Else be?

Fame is a fleeting thing here, just like it is in real life.
It is a system that some people adore and others detest.
Although it has its pros and cons, the blow-back from releasing it has to be considered.
The amount of spam and begging for fame, along with the fact that it directly or indirectly promotes elitism, has to be considered. Would getting rid of the Fame Leaderboard fix any of that?

And... we come to the weapon/armour debate, which was the first thing this thread existed for.
First question: Order, Chaos, or order from chaos?
Presently, there is no noticeable pattern in weapons from level one to the level cap.
Once you toss Varium versus Non-Varium costs into the mix, should we completely standardize the weapon system?

All I have are questions. Do you have the answers?
This is a thread to post and discuss all solutions and ideas for EpicDuel balance, be it the battle system or on a larger scale.
Threads exist for individual, though sometimes well thought-out singular arguments. Let's get multiple conversations going on in the same, even environment.
In other words, let's go.

This is the Comprehensive Balance Discussion... Mk ll.
Allons-y!

Thank you,
~The Doctor

Tagged! ~AVA

Edit from Cinderella: Please only direct discussion here if the new thread touches on a subject brought up here. I'm compiling a list of topics brought up in the comprehensive balance thread, and will post when done.

Please direct all questions concerning the following to his thread:

Buff to tech mages
Nerf Focus
Remove blocks/crits/chance/agility/focus
Reformat armours
Completely tear down the current skill system and use Xendran’s idea
Eliminate classes
Reformat blocks to be based on strength
Change cooldown rates to valuable skills (eg. Field Medic)
Change stats on existing weapons

Thanks! <3
Battle On!
-Cinderella




H4ll0w33n -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:25:01)

well i think balence in epicduel will never be achieved because unless your all the same class then thats the easiest possibility.

my idea of balencing is buffing not nerfing. almost 75% of the balence topics you see today is nerf this, nerf that but that make the game more complicated like having requirements, agility, focus, ect. buffing is harder and slower but the fact that it neutralizes the previous nerfs is well worth it. somethings should be nerfed for obvious reasons (ex. skill gives 99999+ str every point invested........yeah its exaggerated..)


Changing the current weapons would have people complaining so i dont really know what to do there.

i suggest making all weapons of a certain level have a stat increase cap because the jester maul has 28 while frostbane has 34 and 6 is too much of a increase imo for the same level weapon.
========================================================================

========================================================================

, just using buffing more to solve issues. BH and Mages want to nerf AS because they cant win 2v2's. well i say buff multi shot and plasma rain so its useable in 2v2 and therefore no nerfing.

I want to have these skills buffed:

plasma rain
overload
plasma bolt
supercharge
double strike
blood shield
stun grenade
multi shot

because i rarely see these skills being used and the reason is that they are considered noob skills at level 32.


Equalizing the triangle to the closest way to balance is for the ED team to get a balancing crew. normal players like u and me consider whats oped from 1 perspective (usually) and most comments are just because they aren't good or because they want to be the best. like right now they are complaining bout assimilate. they dont see the fact that 2 energy ruins a build. if there was a balancing crew they would be able to know whats truly oped.

whats most useful is doing the experiments with a eligible build (the "normal" builds people use today. they need to take results and compare it with whats acutally OPed. i complain about blood shield because its a new skill and we still have hope for it but whats better to complain about buffing is double strike, well imo.


if you go to every balancing topic atm they provide no proof. they are all bias but even when its true it still needs to be proved and this is where the balancing crew would help greatly.


------------
class change has really made it easier to abuse builds and when people say ADAPT! it takes too long to do when your class population is 20% and only 2% is trying. without class change solving the problems by adapting was defaintly easier because you had more help on your side. the way i see it is that people dont want to try experimenting and trying to beat a class by finding out what they need to win. the easiest way is nerfing them.


its like i give u 4 numbers, 1 2 3 4, you need to find out how many possible combinations there are:

1234
3214
2134
1324
3124
2314

you cant find out the rest so you propose getting rid of the 4

now its

123
321
213
132
312
231
and thats easier then using brains.

the funniest thing about this atm is that they released focus to balence but now its being abused. people say they cant have that high hp well i say if you can have at least 10 hp more then the agility bar then do it.

ex.

1)you have 95 hp +1
2) you have 105 hp +0


people thing +1 is better but +0 is better if you dont get hit 10 times+. 10 extra hp is the same as getting hit 10 times. usually fights dont last 10 rounds+ (healing) so people dont look at it in that way. and that leads to defense, offense stats but its just too complicated to write it all down unless i want to spend the next hour doing so.



in summary if i lost u xD

1) get a balencing team <==*IMPORTANT*
2) let players solve the problem on their own sometimes
3) buff not nerf for the most part




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:28:04)

rixty rippers also have 34
and that was way back in beta
lvl 32 didn't even come out at that time




The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:29:19)

@H4ll0w33n
So you are saying that by buffing classes until they are at the same level?
Combined with re-balancing weapons (of a sort) as you mentioned, that is a possibility.

That's kind of what I mentioned with the triangle comment.
Bringing them up a bit by bit but one will end up on top.

Do you know of a way to equalize the triangle, so to speak?
What would you propose buffing?

Thank you,
~The Doctor




BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:31:36)

My idea that Focus should be 3 only

Make Block reduce 90% damage so people stop abuse Block effect

Make Mer multi warm up 3 turns.

Make Mage MP steal skill 2 turns cooldown

That's the basic now




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:33:30)

buff tech mages. and giving every class a skill that cant be blocked one that has a large cooldown.
for example assimilation
assimilation is a slap in the face to tech mages by ED
first of all it has really low energy reducing. and u regain almost nothing
did i mention it can be blocked?
yes it can be infact blocked EASILY by BH
BH are currently overpowered in blocks
i seen BH block like 6 times in a fight against my tank merc
he blocked the 2 robots first
then 2 strikes
then robots again. and he crit me twice so i lost without being able to get a hit on him.

basicaly make assimilation unblockable




The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:33:43)

@BlueKatz
Okay, two of those have a possibility, I think.
However, I found these hard to understand.

"Make Block reduce 90% damage so people stop abuse Block effect"
"Focus should be 3 only"

Do you mean that Focus should only go up to +3?
Also, please explain the bit about Blocking a bit further.

Thank you,
~The Doctor




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:39:24)

also assimilation does more than normal strike damage
when i had tank merc i had 35-42 resistance +8 from armor
and a tech mage did 32 with assimilation with only 48 str
he did have it maxxed out tho




Ashari -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:44:46)

The pursuit for balance in the current form is flawed. The staff is trying to fix classes, which you can consider to the top of the ED balance structure when their foundation is unbalanced to begin with.

The first thing to look at before touching weapons, skills or adding any more requirements is the stats themselves. Xendran had a great post showing the relative power of each stat (albeit with a few small errors) and its clear that each stat is not worth the same. Until you can balance the stats, any attempts at balance will get undermined by abusing certain stats.


@BlueKatz: I would like to see the strength of block and crits reduced too. Rage was heavily nerfed from 65% to 45% defense ignore. I think critical hits need to go the same route. As for block, I think there are two good options:
- Block only blocks 75% of damage. Effects can be blocked (ie: Malf, Intim, Smoke Screen to be inline with Assimilation)
- Blocks still block 100% of damage. Effects still can't be blocked.




PD -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:45:21)

Rather touchy subject you've got here... I'll tread on this lightly to be careful; Here's just my opinion. Whether you will read it or not is up to you.

IF you pull up a dictionary, and try to look up Balance, it indeed generally means Equilibrium. To this, I think how this applies here is that the three involved parties, Mercenaries, Bounty Hunters, and Tech Mages, would be be equal from a statistical Value standpoint, and a Metaphorical Standpoint.

However, there's a factor called level differences. This is where it gets tricky - Clearly, the game rewards the person who players more with extra stat points, and better weapons. But also, I believe that a 1 level difference SHOULD be a 1 level difference, or 8 stat points (4 Base Stats, and 4 additional stat points from weapons). This is just on a fundamental standpoint. Now, if you throw in varium, you've paid for your advantage, and that is what you'll get - But not to the point where you have a free win over those who DON'T buy varium. Varium items should roughly be technically 1 level "better" than non varium items. To this, you'd still see the advantage, but you're also not going to be guarenteed to win. To find the fine line is tricky - If Varium items reward the player too little, then nobody will buy varium - but if It rewards too much, then You've got major problems on your hands; a Scenario we today face on a daily basis. This standards must be created - It would fix the level differences so that level would matter, but skill would be the factor that rewards one with victory.

I'm not sure that my view of balance is the "best one", or even a "good one" at that, but I believe that balance is possible through standardization and equalization of stats. Anyone who's seen my Stat Inflation post know that I would DIE to see the day where an equilibrium is created. I don't think it's a dream - I really do think it's an achievable reality - but those days are far from today.




The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:46:16)

@goldslayer1
Actually, Assimilation has no effect on the amount of damage done.
It's quite possible the Tech Mage you fought had hit his maximum damage and had high strength.

Also, Assimilation is hitting the enemy with a staff to drain energy, yes?
I'm not sure if it would be realistic to make it still work if the staff was blocked... but that's not my call.

You could at least be coming into contact with the enemy when your opponent blocks.
Otherwise, what part of their body would be blocking anything?

Thank you,
~The Doctor




BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:52:56)

quote:

"Make Block reduce 90% damage so people stop abuse Block effect"
"Focus should be 3 only"


Yes I think Focus should only go up to 3 only.

In detail, my Focus idea allow player to make more build also reduce the robot build (Mean while we can make Robot base damage base more on Level and Tech, which make Tech more useful)

My 2nd idea is making Block instead of complete ignore the damage, reduce 90% damage incoming damage. This also make Focus builds stronger because the min damage will be higher.




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:57:07)

@doctor
what? O.o




Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/3/2011 23:59:45)

KABAM!

Note: The following things are using 3 assumptions.

1: Focus is removed
2: Agility is NOT removed
3: Armors get significantly buffed
4: While this fixes stats, it does NOT fix skills, so do not discuss skills in regards to this post. Skills would be fixed after this.

If i see anybody commenting about CURRENT SKILLS AND THEIR POWERS in regards to this post, they will be ignored




==Strength==
Primary Weapon Damage     3:1
Deflection                4:1
Rage Rate Increase        4:1

==Dexterity==
Defence                   3:1
Block                     4:1
First Turn Chance         4:1

==Technology==
Resistance                3:1
Stun Rate                 4:1
Robot Damage              4:1

==Support==
Auxiliary weapon Damage   3:1
Critical Chance           4:1
Secondary Weapon Damage   4:1

===Primary Damage, Auxiliary Damage,Defence and Resistance===
1   Point  of random damage for every 3 points
0.5 points of base   damage for every 3 points

EX:


0     0-0
3     0-1
6     1-2
9     1-3
12    2-4
15    2-5
18    3-6
21    3-7
24    4-8
27    4-9
30    5-10




===Deflections, Blocks, Stuns, and Criticals===

Deflection = Deflect 50% Damage.  Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of strength GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to deflection rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base    + 0%
Maximum +20%

Block      = Guard   50% Damage.  Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of dexterity GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to block rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base    + 0%
Maximum +20%

Critical   = Ignore  50% Def/res. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of support GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to critical rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base    + 0%
Maximum +20%

Stun       = Skip Opponents Turn  Worth 1.0 Turns
For every 4 points of technology GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 0.5% to stun rate, and your opponent loses 0.5%.
Minimum -20%
Base    + 0%
Maximum +20%





===Secondary Damage, Robot Damage===

1   Point  of random damage for every 4 points
0.5 points of base   damage for every 4 points

EX:


0     0-0
4     0-1
8     1-2
12    1-3
16    2-4
20    2-5
24    3-6
28    3-7
32    4-8
36    4-9
40    5-10
44    5-11
48    6-12

===First Turn, Rage Rate===
For every 4 points of dexterity GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to go first.
For every level LESS THAN your opponent, you gain 7% to go first.
Min: 0%
Base: 50%
Max: 100%

For every 4 points of strength GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% more rage per turn.
NOTE: This is a 1% INCREASE in your rage, not a 1% ADDITION to the rage meter.

===Rage===
Minimum Rage Per Turn: 13%
Base Rage Per Turn:    13%
Maximum Rage Per Turn: 22%

Rage causes the action used to deal double damage.


===Armors===
Armors would gain a significant boost in their +def and +res. All armors would give both res and def, however would lean towards def or res at a 2:1 ratio.





goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:02:47)

quote:

Deflection = Deflect 50% Damage. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of strength GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to deflection rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%

Block = Guard 50% Damage. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of dexterity GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to block rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%

Critical = Ignore 50% Def/res. Worth 0.5 Turns
For every 4 points of support GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 1% to critical rate, and your opponent loses 1%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%

Stun = Skip Opponents Turn Worth 1.0 Turns
For every 4 points of technology GREATER THAN your opponent, you gain 0.5% to stun rate, and your opponent loses 0.5%.
Minimum -20%
Base + 0%
Maximum +20%


this only power up the tanks




Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:06:56)

Please provide proof without referencing the current skills, as the current skills are broken.
How does it make tanks any stronger if blocks and criticals are nerfed?
Tanks usually have insane dex, so now they wont take 100% less damage for all their blocks




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:09:27)

any tech mage or bounty hunter can easily use tank to get more
stun % and block rate
and if u tech mages can also use support allowing them to use auxs and crit aswell.
and with the current support bh while tank. it would just be too OP and then u would see everyone turning into tanks making fights last as long as heal looping tech mages




H4ll0w33n -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:11:02)

@ some people o.0(yeah..)

focus up to 3+

No. robot is useless. if robot buffed lower levels will be OPed (with a bot). focus promotes non extreme builds which is sometimes good.


Block should just get a name change to dodge.

blocks in any other AE game ignores 100% damage. so blocks staying the same is gud.

Assimilate to a 2 turn cooldown wouldnt be good for obvious reasons. (since no en cost no stat req damages hp)

merc multi to 3 turn warm up would mean, make it ignore 50% defense. buff the other 2 multis dont nerf this one

@Below gold guy

that was a obvious exaggeration on how bad a idea that is -.- i thought that was obvious.




Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:16:54)

goldslayer, you basically proved yourself wrong.

With my version, if people want blocks, stun rate and crit they need THREE stats, and even then, the blocks and crits aren't as effective.

Currently, they only need TWO stats, and blocks are double strength and crits are 25% more effective.




goldslayer1 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:18:07)

50% ignore
thats insane.

what u just said made no sense.
if they are able to tank/block alot of ur hits while still doing good hits on u. then its OP.
it would make str useless
also i dont see how its only 25% ignore on crits if i had tank mercs and fought people who did like 3s on strikes and then do 20-30s on crits




BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:19:49)

^me? :P

Assimilate 2 turn cool down is nothing, all MP skill 2 turn cooldown. Assimilate is not even that good if people have well thought build.
I only can say if Death Aim have 2 turn cooldown, so should Assimilate. Both skill have no cost, HOWEVER you can't always use them when it cooldown without a cost (of being defenseless)


Mer Multi 3 turns war up + rage is basic. This only mean to make people have chance to counter Mer in 2vs, this strongly prevent Support spam build (of course they can tank Heal easily, which Make Support build still strong... did I mention the aux)

So! THere's nothing wrong with Mer after this nerf...lol, but surely this bring up more space for strategy



I don't want to nerf Robot completely, I want to make it less depend on Focus and more really on Tech and level scaling




Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:21:04)

Crits do 75% ignore currently. I weakened them by 25%
I also cut blocks power in half.
Also, you haven't provided any mathematical proof.

If you look at my stats, first of all technology in my version gives less resistance than it does currently.


EDIT: Can we keep this thread heavily on the math side so we don't have people changing things without understanding what/why it does or doesn't need to be changed, and how it needs to be changed?
I think the doctor would agree, please don't post a suggestion without math backing up your reasoning.




The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:23:21)

@Xendran
The logical validity of your argument is impressive.
One of your ideas is for luck (criticals & blocks) to have less effect in a battle, yes?

They would be act on the sidelines, from what I can tell.
This does make sense. After all, Support by name is a supporting stat.

Thank you,
~The Doctor




Xendran -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:24:29)

Luck wont have "less" of an effect on the battle than the other factors, however it will have less effect than it does now.
As you can see, every effect is standardized within its tier, and each skill has three effects which all scale identically with the other effects in their tiers.




H4ll0w33n -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/4/2011 0:30:50)

quote:

^me? :P

Assimilate 2 turn cool down is nothing, all MP skill 2 turn cooldown. Assimilate is not even that good if people have well thought build.
I only can say if Death Aim have 2 turn cooldown, so should Assimilate. Both skill have no cost, HOWEVER you can't always use them when it cooldown without a cost (of being defenseless)

Mer Multi 3 turns war up + rage is basic. This only mean to make people have chance to counter Mer in 2vs, this strongly prevent Support spam build (of course they can tank Heal easily, which Make Support build still strong... did I mention the aux)

So! THere's nothing wrong with Mer after this nerf...lol, but surely this bring up more space for strategy


I don't want to nerf Robot completely, I want to make it less depend on Focus and more really on Tech and level scaling


Assimilate 2 turn cooldown is big. a battle is about 6 turns. u assimilate once so they will have to use a skill or heal. fight, fight, fight. they dont use a en booster right after because it only gives back 1-10 and thats useless. they use the heal first. then you assimilate again and they en booster now. you got a free hit (this is a smart player, if it was a dum one ud get 2 free turns). deadly aim has 2 turn cooldown?!?!!? WHY ARE U COMPAREING THIS!?!?! gun has 2 turn cooldown so OBVIOUSLY this doesnt matter at all!!!!! use your brain plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! your not defenseless with the skills r in cooldown, your offenseless. (you play offense to gain defense :P) merc multi 3 turns warm up + rage? thats not it dude, its already been nerfed once. how would this benefit the lower levels? they would now rather favor Bunker Blaster. its a 3 tier skill for crying out loud. if this was to happen then give reroute a 1 turn cooldown and bloodlust also 1 turn cooldown. merc are the most OPed in 2v2 but assimilate comes in handy where it can take out a multi. theres things wrong with the merc nerf, things that you dont see because your not one.

@Xen

3:1 for the aux damage and primary seems good in the math part but in the part where its dealing with real people i dont really see that happening. str builds would be abused.

theres a 50% chance(excluding variables) that the person will have a physical/energy weapon. if its 3:1 like the res and def then it would be a game of guessing/luck.

EX.

now:

40 40 40 40

10 damage
10 aux

13 def
16 res (im pretty sure this is wrong -.- so dont comment on it)

so you have a advantage against the luck issue. because the damage isnt going to out rule the defense.
-------

If its your way:

40 40 40 40

13 damage
13 aux

13 def
13 res


the offense would have a advantage against the defense.
(thats a confusing example ... kinda so ill provide a explanation)

damage is aux, sidearm, primary

and they can be in energy or physical without putting more stats, while in defending you have to think about 2 types res/def so it would be if you got more of res, you would need to hope that they have more res damage overall then defense.

I cant find the right words atm so dont mind it if you dont get what im saying.


Your idea of balancing the stats has some flaws. if we wanted to do it your way we could easily make every class the same thing, all mages, all merc, all bh. that isnt the best idea for a game. somethings have to be better than others.




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