RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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Calogero -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 16:06:22)

@ AVA


sorry but what does Colour Customizing have to do with Ballance???



The Doctor -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 16:18:11)

@andy123
The idea that Varium is possibly taking up more than its fair share of the game.
You said that it should no longer cost Varium just to change your armour colours if you already had a special Varium hairstyle and weren't buying another.

Overall, that's part of a solution to the larger Varium problem.
At least, that's what I can tell.

Thank you,
~The Doctor



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 16:37:54)

@andy123

When i saw your thread i say the samething , archs collecting all things in 1 thread , There isnt any connection with Colorization and Balance in my opinion.



uria9 -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 17:05:59)

from what i can tell Epicduel is like a children's card game (yugioh),why?because something always become overpowered for a while then get nerf then something else come on top months later and theres nothing that can fix that



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 17:37:38)

IsaiahtheMage it is good that you are confused I will not clearify it if I write level 37 weapon then you should know what I am wiring about.

A Level 32 Tech mage should be one of the more powerful players but they are not, why?

If they want to encoure players to have a +5 focus balanced build then they need to give the mage an actual +5 bonus damage.

With a Level 1 Overload it is 37 damage so +5 would be 42 damage with so many players I face with low resistance I should be getting that damage or more with them being stunned but a couple of times I only got 7, 9 , 11 those was only two times with a +4 not a +5 I got a 47 cit damage with the Level 1 Overload.

If mages are so powerfuls as people say then this is what I request of merc and of a bounty retrain and whatever your highest stat you start at make that 50 rest at 45, the rest towards health, adjust your skill tree to what you want, and balance out your enhancements evenly across the stats, after a couple battles tell me who gets the true +5 damage, the damage of the sidearms, Aux, Strikes.

So for someone to say that there is balance, I want you to show me and prove it.



Calogero -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 18:18:52)

if you look at it that way then ... yea I pretty much don't get it so I'll just keep my mouth shut :P



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 18:30:28)

Players Handbook
"Blood Lust is a passive skill, already-on, no energy cost, which gives vampiric regeneration. For each
round of combat, you get the effect/level % of the damage you inflict added to your health. For example,
striking for 30 points of damage with Blood Lust-7 will cause you to heal by 6 (20% of 30) points."

A deadly passive skill with no cool down and no energy drain, rarely gets blocked, while the only offensive passive skill that the mage has barely restores energy blocked 95% of the time and has a cool down of 3 so how in anyway is this balanced?



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 18:45:16)

I've been thinking, and this is what I think should be done as a solution :
(warning - paragraph may be tl;dr for some forumites, & if it is, skip to the last paragraph)

General:

  • Field Medic's cooldown should be 3 turns. (agility is fine, that can stay where it is)
  • Bots should only use x4 focus and increase damage every 6 tech points (fixing robot slaves)
  • Dex's defense rate is to be levelled out on par with tech, so that dex will give the same amount of defence as tech to resistance
  • And the Main thing: Put the chance to block on TECH, and the chance to deflect on DEX
  • The higher you push a stat, the more you have to put into it in order make it more effective i.e. from 0-60 str damage increases every 4 points, but past that and you need an amount proportionate to the number as a whole.(prevent stat abusers as a whole)
  • Remove stat requirements on passives (the requirements will become unnecessary if you keep reading)
  • Focus is fine, assuming that the robot nerf is applied.

Class specifics:

BH:

  • Multi shot requires wrist blades
  • Increase Massacre's support requirement, but reduce the step to as low as possible.
  • Remove poison's stat requirement, but make it blockable (but reduce the chance to block by 3/4)
  • I should point out that as a TM i am fine with shadow arts, simply because its is a decent tier 4 skill (unlike the other 2)


Merc:

  • Bezerker must be used with mace OR switch its place with blood shield (this is because it is actually a slightly weakened version of massacre, which I think is hardly fair)
  • Remove crit chance from bunker buster and lower defense ignore by at least 10%
  • Remove the defense ignore from Maul
  • Remove rage-nerf from Surgical Strike OR Apply rage-nerf to the other super moves i.e super charge, massacre
  • Blood shield requires less hp to use i.e 2hp for 4 resist -> 9hp for 13 resist
  • Artillery strike requires mace
  • Give Hybrid armour a nerf so it maxes at 10 defence OR the merc has to activate it at the start of battle (gives buff lasting 99999 turns)


TM:

  • Assimilation has no weapon requirement and one of the following - channels 100% of mp to user OR it is unblockable OR can take off more MP
  • Plasma rain ignores 5% of resistance
  • Plasma bolt does not require staff as it should be physically possible to channel energy through a thin piece of metal (or whatever)


You may be wondering why Mercs need so many modifications. This is because mercs are still the most versatile class while BH and TM are being forced into the same build over and over again and the devs have granted them the best possible skill set. I see this at mid level at at the higher end. The devs have done little to help, and while i do congratulate them for building a great game, I fail to see a) why this game has to be so varium-driven, b) why it is so hard to come up with a decent strategy that will work yourself, rather than using a build which you *must* use, and c)why the devs never actually read this stuff.

EDIT: and before I forget, I should suggest stuff for the future:

  • Permanent level 32 weaps are a must (though they say this is coming)
  • No limited rare shops (that was a bad idea from the start)
  • Reduce the stuff that needs varium (do I have to spend a few months to level a character high enough to call it a name change or a class change just becaue i cant afford the exorbitant prices?)



Calogero -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 18:51:11)

quote:

Field Medic's cooldown should be 3 turns. (agility is fine, that can stay where it is)


This would be a Buff to Support Mercs and maybe Support Mages ( but mostly Mercs seeing they only have a lvl 1 FM )

quote:

Bots should only use x4 focus and increase damage every 6 tech points (fixing robot slaves)


Again this would nerf ( a bit ) the Tech Mercs but also the TechMages ( BH aswell but I haven't seen a lot of them that use it )


TM's don't have a lot of builds, so nerving those 2 would actualy backfire on Mages imo



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 18:58:52)

quote:

the Main thing: Put the chance to block on TECH, and the chance to deflect on DEX


This give more opportunities coupled with malf and this:
quote:

Plasma bolt does not require staff as it should be physically possible to channel energy through a thin piece of metal (or whatever)


Therefore allowing more build choices.
I probably have forgotten something (like the explanations and consequences of those actions), but as far as i can see that should last you at least 1/2 year or until a new OP'ed build appears

@below:
I covered that.
quote:

Assimilation has no weapon requirement and one of the following - channels 100% of mp to user OR it is unblockable OR can take off more MP
note that with asim you gain mp rather than lose it, and if it succeeds you get an extra hit in.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 19:00:43)

What about EMP and Atom Smasher they both take over 90% of the mages energy while Assimilation, if not blocked, takes only 10 points of energy. When people talk about fair and balanced if one or the other weapon could take awy over 30 points of energy then the other weapons should be able to take the same amount.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 19:13:47)

One issue with assimilate is that it should be EITHER blockable OR staff only, not both. Other than that, assimilate is fine. It is the only energy draining attack that does a full strike as well. This can make it quite deadly. I really dont see why so many TMs are complaining about how little energy it drains.

And YES, i have been a TM with assimilate, and i am also a 5 star commander. (not to brag, but SOME people have a habit of accusing others of being stupid nubs who dont know what they are talking about)



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 19:15:19)

Ya I would avoid nerfing bots due to the fact bots were made more for Tech Mages and I won't be surprised if they create a class that will focus on bots for Tech Mages only in the future.



Practel -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 19:17:26)

A strict Pvp is one of the hardest, if not hardest games to balance. I get tired at all the ranting about how the game isn't balanced. Think of it like this, if all the classes were perfectly balanced, the game wouldn't be any enjoyment. Pretty much you would win/lose the same percentage of the time. (Not including the extra variables)

I know that balance is something many of you want, but I imagine things like this; There will always be a class that is overpowered, unbalanced, or unsupported. It's something that is happening and will continue to happen.

If the devs happen to re-balance everything and make it perfectly, then you have to bring in account future updates to the armory, weapons, armors, and make sure they fit the system perfectly. Most game developers need to take suggestions from the players; And for EpicDuel I think they do it more, but we just don't know it. I know Titan tweeted that there were some new features taken right from this forum, and made some pretty huge YET good balance changes to the game. The staff care, and if they make a mistake, it's not intentional. I look at it two ways. You can play the game and enjoy it for what it is, or you can play the game but try to perfect it to the point where it's not fun.

Balancing EpicDuel is much harder then a non-pvp game, I know the whole controversy between the non-variums and the varium players is a huge thing people are complaining about. If you really think about it, the people that pay for things in game should have the better advantage over the people who didn't. Stats and weapon/armor enhancements also play a huge role in the game. I have a total of +20 stat points spread out in different skills, and just that changes the field of battle tremendously.

So heres my final say on this
“Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.” And by that I mean, in 20 years from now, we will all probably have forgotten or not even play EpicDuel anymore, so while we still do, I just want to enjoy the game.

Thanks,
~Practel

@Below
The simple answer to your question (Statement actually is) Anyone who buys something should have the extra benefit then someone who doesn't. Also, if the game didn't have Varium or any form of online currency, not one of us would be here. The devs are pretty much rewarding the players that support the game the most, BUT they still support the non variums just as much. People like Founders, Elites, and Alphas love the game, and continuously support the game. Thats why they are the best.



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 19:20:15)

@tigura:
Well TMs do need a buff right now, and besides i didnt say it HAD to be unblockable, i simply pointed it out as an option.
Though i do agree it could become OPed, and for the record, I have blocked Atom Smasher before.

@Holiday Practel:
you posted midway through while i was typing this anwser, so i'll respond here:
Would you really call it fun if in a 1v1 a str BH comes and kills you in 2-3 moves without saying a word several times in a row? The upper levels suck the fun out of this game, and while 2v2 is still chatty, would you feel good if you bought excessive amounts of varium just to get a few bragging rights? Yes, it is a game, yes, it is supposed to be fun. But as a person who doesn't bother buying varium in this game, i dont see what the reason is behind spend $100s on a load of pixels. That is obsessive, not enjoyment.

Ok, the last sentence was offtopic, so i'll get to the point. You would get frustrated that you lost to some guy who blocked all of your attacks even though he/she was 5 levels lower and you should've easily beat him/her if the RNG didn't hate you, right? So thats not fun is it? Nor is it fun when some person who is the same level and murders you in 2 moves. Yes it is chatty, but that is the only good part behind it (aside from murdering someone else, and they don't think its fun do they?). you may as well go on aqw and chat there or some other social site.


@orrthehunter
The bot nerf was mainly aimed at str bounties and certain variants of mercs, but generally to lower the variums' power against the non-variums



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 20:42:16)

Assimilation is not fine as being blockable and taking only 10 points and giving you back 5 when EMP is unblockable and could take away 39 points of energy leaving you with a weak offense and the bounty hunter with over 50% of their energy and a strong offense.

With the mage blocks have been greatly reduced by the time you get a chance to heal you are basically dead.

Blood Lust is a passive skill that allows the bounty hunter restore their health every round because it can be used every round.

Probably the argument should be more about making things fair not about making it balanced because why would you make one or two classes drain over 90% of another classes energy which basically all skills require for that skill to be used.



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 20:54:54)

against bounty hunters:
quote:

the Main thing: Put the chance to block on TECH, and the chance to deflect on DEX

This means they cant smokscreen you, reduce your block rate to near nothing, then kill you, though i don't get what you meant byt hat sentence.
Secondly:
quote:

Assimilation has no weapon requirement and one of the following - channels 100% of mp to user OR it is unblockable OR can take off more MP
We can assume you have used malfunction in most cases, reducing their block rate to assim. if you gain ten and they lose 10 (option one), that levels it out by 20mp. if it is unblockable, you have an guaranteed hit at them, levelling mp out by 15(option 2). If they lose 20 and you gain 5(option 3), you've levelled it out by 25mp.
ANd while EMP grenade does not do damage, Assim does as well as not having any mp cost.



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 21:44:24)

^ well the bots will become a less issue with focus as level caps increase since they'll probably set focus only up to +5 so after +5 people can focus more on other stats once the level cap increases again maybe by 10 levels to begin showing less effectiveness. For now focus is OP for bots due to the current level cap. The x6 focus is most likely due to their plans for future level caps and they probably don't plan to expand focus past +5.



The Cannible -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 22:06:35)

An easy way to nerf bots is just to wait until the level cap raises 1, and we get stronger weps and more stat points, Stronger weps means robots have a harder time keeping up, and if it only goes up like 2 levels... you won't really have the stat points to make a +6 focus build.



od -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 22:16:34)

Well I think personally that caster mages will become Oped soon once we figure out a way 2 use it. I remember a long time ago people were saying that maul (the skill) was terrible but now, people want it nerfed.



The Cannible -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 22:28:42)

@ od

Dude, caster mage is NEVER going to be OP'd unless the upgrade the damage and or affects on those skills. We can't have an OP caster if all the counterparts of the casting attacks are way stronger anyways. Worst multi, worst stun, worst projectile, worst final attack. If all those are the worst they can NEVER become OP'd. That's logic.

Edit:
And something REALLY needs to be done about tech and dex. There is no reason to spam tech. Some would argue robots... but you have 45 in every stat to make robots worthwhile.. so any stat could make robots do more and it would be the same.. If you were stupid like me, and bought a physical armor, your doomed, just having physical armor, and not spending those points in dex, lowers your win % by 10% almost guaranteed. With +8 def in phy you have to put more points in tech to keep up.. and guess what.. tech is worthless. And the people who say that hybrid should be able to choose your defence before the battle starts... is an idiot. 90% would have their hybrid on res, armor on res, and not have to put a single point in tech, than spam dex and str like crazy. I have wasted real life money buying phy armor. The stats NEEEEED to be balanced. That is the #1 problem with this game. The stats are broken.

I have merged your posts, please do not double post as it is considered spam. Please use the edit button to add any additional information. ~Illuminator



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 23:36:02)

^ If the game didn't have HP restrictions what you say will be true but this game's HP restrictions force people to depend on high Defense to face other players and most importantly NPCs since now they're releasing more NPC battles that will reward players. Having high defense is needed to defeat the NPCs due to their damage rate which can basically take away 2/5 to 1/2 of your HP if you don't have high defense or resistance.



od -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/6/2011 23:47:23)

@cannible
Worst stun??? Ours increments in +3-3-3-3-3-3-2-2-2 While BH increments in 3-3-3-2-2-2-1-1-1. And TM also costs 2 less mana, so how can it be worse. You may be saying " it requires class spec. weap" but TM have some GREAT lvl 32 staves. So really I think stin grenade is Uped



BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/7/2011 0:11:39)

^ BH stun can be increased by 10% by SA



Mr.Pablo Jr. -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/7/2011 1:26:23)

Class specified Agility- Raise the step-up for mages, lower the step-up for bounty hunters, and mercenaries are fine as they are.

That idea will most likely increase the population of mages in EpicDuel and buff them up just enough to compete. Bounty hunters on the other hand won't be nerfed too horribly, it'll just make them think twice about having high Health.

Raise Massacre requirements.

The Massacre requirements are redundant because bounty hunters with the Christmas gear needs 30 for Support anyways, therefor easily bypassing that requirement.

Take away the 25% critical rate on Bunker Buster.

People have been complaining about it for quite some while, so why not? The 25% is just completely absurd, and it goes great with Azrael's Bane.

Scale Deadly Aim's requirement the same as Shadow Arts and Blood Lust, except in strength.

It was previoiusly scaled in support, honestly? There are about two strength mages and a lot more support mages, so why the heck is it in support? Its not Rocket Science, its Balance.

~Sanctum



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