RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 7:37:53)

1 and 3 or 1 and 4 rounds what is the difference if it could take away 90% of your energy. Assimilation in a chain of attack if it is blocked 98% of the time, what chain? bludgeon is blockable? Yes, I have seen level 32 bounty hunters with level 7, 8, 9 and maxed bloodlust and level 32 mercs maxed hybrid armors. I just battle a merc used malfunction first he had his stats at all 45s and with malfunction on I shot hm with the cupids sorrow damage only 9 points on him Assimilation only 12 damage, deadly aim at max frost blaster 9 and 9. You say the overload a game changer I struck him with a level 1 overload 12 damage and no stun, so where is my strong offensive attacks? While with his aux he got 30 damage on just that alone, and I have my defense and resistance at 30 each. Level 10 energy grenade is only suppose to take away 29 points of energy but at lower levels it takes away more.

So as mercs and bounties able to take away masive damage from the mage health and energy as well to the point were massacre, artillary strike, bunker buster, sidearm, or Aux could take us out in the 3rd round sometimes in the 2nd round.

You say my suggestion would make Assimilation overpowered, how in this last match would it be overpowered when the damage to health was only 12?

If it means bringing heal loop to a new level then let's bring it to a new level and make the battles last longer then 3 rounds as well as allowing the mage to combine and energy armor and a physical armor and take the total points of the combined armors and put them towards defense and resistance.

It is sad that you as well as other players using mercs and bounties to keep one class underpowered, for what? Why can't the mage have at least one or two things to go in our favor.






TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 7:51:10)

Sry but i start to think Mages are not Uped , Support build works great against any build And i think we are close to balance.

Asim-Make energy reduce unblockable and enable it using with sword (almost all skills of mage useable with staff its unfair and asim look like a sword skill)
Make stats Dont work higher than 100 , this will only effect +120 support Mercs .For me they are not strong but they always deflect and crit which makes not Balance.
And Make a special nerf for STR Mercs , i can win any str merc if they use physical primary but i dont have energy shield so when they use energy primary its imposible to win.

These 3 things can bring balance



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 7:58:09)

Only reason he won is because that time Assimilation was not blocked if it was blocked he would not be posting that message. Don't just take one qoute and try to make something more powerful then it is trying to show people it does not have to change. Get all the quotes about Assimilation and see more than often of how people complained it being blocked over and over again. If a merc needs 32 points of energy to use Artillary strike and they don't use any energy saving it for the rage (which happens pretty fast for them) and Assimilation only takes away 10 if not blocked and they have an energy level at 50, how is that 10 points going to make a difference.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 8:17:00)

^ 1 energy is enough to ruin their build.I can win supp Mercs if they not crit or Deflect me with asim it will be more balanced if they crit of deflect me



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 8:41:18)

TurkishIncubus
So 1 point of energy loss to a merc can stop a bunker buster ar Artillary strike I did not know they raised the energy requirements of those two attacks, and if the bounty hunter is at 41 energy and you take away one point leaving them with 40 they can't use massacre or EMP so when they raised those energy requirements.

If I am not correct your health is at 120 and you could have high support with a sword try doing the same with any of the new staffs, including sidearms and aux. If someone took away 35 to 39 points of energy from you were you can't use malfunction making them waste a turn and they could just attack do you think you can win then.

Caster mages are under powered and if you think damage less than 10 or even 20 is powerful then damage of 1 or 2 must be really powerful. Overload doing only 7, 8, or 9 with no stun, that must be overwhelming power.

If you are starting to think mages are not underpowered then put your build to all 45s and have the same enhancements as mercs and bounties with all 45s and see if you could win as often.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 8:51:17)

@ Hun Kingq

Your main issue is with Assimilation being blockable, right? But it is erroneous to say that a skill is useless just because it can be blocked. In that case maul, atom smasher, and berserker should be considered useless skills? However they are in fact very useful skills. The complaints show that Assimilation is useless if blocked, but the other mages' comments show that if it hits, it is perfectly useful. The only reason that the complaints focus on Assimilation is because it is a new skill that is expected to buff the mage class.

Do you think Assimilation is blocked more than Berserk? Do you think that Berserk can be useful when blocked? There is always a risk of a blockable skill being blocked. As for your examples of your weapons doing ridiculously low damage, your assimilation seems to do more damage than your cupid's sorrow though your primary weapon should have considerably less damage than your auxillary.

Cupid's sorrow has 37 base damage, so for it to do 9 damage, assuming your support damage is a low 11-14 without focus, means that the merc, even after malfunction, has about 40 resistance. I don't know what's your build, but I don't think that's very possible, especially since the opponent seems to be a support merc given his 60+ auxillary damage.

The average resistance after malfunction should be around 20 or below, so even your assimilation should do 20+ damage. You also cannot expect to win another class that is suited to the stats it uses using the exact same stats. Moreover in most cases, the opponent's energy is calculated to the last point, so a drain of 1 or 2 energy will ruin the build. Given most bounty hunters' builds, it is not possible for them to have 41 energy. For example strength bounty hunters will have 34 energy left after using smokescreen, so a level 2 assimilation can stop their massacre.

Assimilation is a situational skill, but it can be used in most situations, thus it is worth investing 1 or 2 skill points in. There is no need to invest 10 skill points if you don't want to. 20+ damage and stopping the opponent's trump card in one go is a pretty good deal in my opinion. You have to carefully observe the different types of builds and judge when to use assimilation and how many skill points to invest in it.



jegaggin -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 9:30:53)

@Silver its possible my attack is 19-23+37+5focus and i have 78 support. i also have 28-34 resitance+ 8 and 24-29 def+13. So its entirely possible for Hun to do that low dmg. I do agree that if the malf is not dealt with (bloodshield,debuff,hybrid switch) it can end a mercs battle prematurely.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 9:35:04)

@Hun Kingq

If you decrease 1 energy that will force them to choose heal or artilary.If i can win them you can win too.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 9:53:50)

well IMO assimilation is a good skill to use. unless a person spam energy yeah do u see that often in high lvls hmm no i guess. well i do hope the enrgry drain of assimilation cannot be blocked. because i find it stupid if a -10 enegry skill can be blocked. come on the energy minus is so little and yet it is blockable. however i do not want it to be a sword skill then it be too powerful. And if they make it a sword staff wat can u wif a staff cast spell which are hmm not so powerful so i rather it remain a staff skill so that mages can use a staff.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 10:10:31)

^ There is no Physical staff and staffs has high requirements + if admins do asim with only staff it will dont count a mage buff , Staff(energy) - Gun(in support build it should be energy)- Aux(shouldbe energy) , it will be all energy , i only said Mages support build is good the other builds is uped.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 10:21:14)

@Luna- I totally agree.


@Hun kingq- I noticed a couple things that you said in earlier posts that Im a little confused about.

quote:

1 and 3 or 1 and 4 rounds what is the difference if it could take away 90% of your energy


Mages generally use the skill called reroute. This gives back a little energy from being hit. During the cooldown rounds of emp, you have a chance of getting back enough energy to be able to heal, or malfunction. Besides, when BHs emp 2 times, they are losing 2 turns of damage. This allows you to do quite a bit of damage while saving yourself some decent damage. And it means they rage slower.

quote:

If you are starting to think mages are not underpowered then put your build to all 45s and have the same enhancements as mercs and bounties with all 45s and see if you could win as often.


You can not just copy the stats of another class and hope to win. Mages are not BHs, and they are not mercs. So why would you copy a BH or Merc build? It doesnt make sense. I mean, a TM 5 focus str build? Really? (I am aware that 5 focus str builds are generally pretty rare, but thats just an example)

quote:

If someone took away 35 to 39 points of energy from you were you can't use malfunction making them waste a turn


Who said that you had to use malfunction in a fight?

quote:

You say the overload a game changer I struck him with a level 1 overload 12 damage and no stun, so where is my strong offensive attacks?


The only reason overload is a 'game changer' is because you can stun people right as you are about to die, and possibly kill them. Lvl 1 overload cannot do "massive damage" and is certainly not a "strong offensive attack"

I really hope you take the time to read this post.




BlueKatz -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 10:53:09)

I still think we should nerf Block. Block should reduce like 90% damage (Focus still the same of course). This will also balance many other skill like Assimilation and Atom. And people can find other way to win beside abusing Dex and SA and then Block 7 hits when had 1 HP left and regen HP by Blood



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 15:09:49)

Cupids sorrow and cupids bane base damage is 34 not 37. Charfade's launcher is 37 but I get less damage with this then cupids bane. Actually after one bounty hunter hit me with smoke screen and he had 41 energy points left and so to make sure he can not use the massacre before the 3rd round or what ever round I had to use Assimilation in the 2nd round and over 90% of the time it is blocked, no damaged and it is a wasted turn I wrote in the past it is only a useful skill when not blocked, just like bludgeon being a useful skill when not blocked. Taking away 1 point of energy does not ruin nothing but makes you look like a joke.

With cupids sorrow my support is 15-18 +34 and I only got 9 damage with him being fully malfunctioned having a base support of 45 lower resistance and lower defense that I have.

Some flawed points in this example : "For example strength bounty hunters will have 34 energy left after using smokescreen, so a level 2 assimilation can stop their massacre." Level 1 massacre needs 32 points of energy so 1 to 2 points from 34 will not make a difference.

I know what skills mages have and what level they are affected at so that is one thing you don't have to point out. When the bounty hunter could get good amount of damage from cheap shot and a good amount of damage from vampire stirke all you can do is waste a turn and heal and when you heal you do not have eneough energy to use any of your other skills especially if the EMP takes your energy like it happened many time before.
It is quite obvious that everyone thinks it is fair and ballanced that an EMP which is not blockable could take away 30+ points of energy when at level 10 it states only 29, and that the mage Assimilation which is blockable only take away 10 points of energy. If anyone thinks that is fair maybe we should go find golf bars together and find 48 pounds of gold bars I keep 39lbs and give you 9lbs worth, would that be fair.

People are always talking about how powerful the mage is to other classes so to see if it is true have players with same sidearms, aux, first the swords then the primary weapon they suppose to have and see who has the biggest strike damage and skill damage and I gaurantee the mage will lose out every single time.

For the mage to have any good damage with energy weapons he has to use malfunction because I battle with and without malfunction to know this.

Overload: I battle 20 players and used overload lvl 1, out of 20 players only 1 got stunned. Out of those 20, 10 were bounty hunters and ecah one used a level 1 stun grenade and out of those 10 I was stunned 9 times. I used a level 10 overload and with low resistance and low support you think that they would get huge damage and get stunned but it does not happen.

With Assimilation it should be kept as a staff requirement so that support abusing mages that uses a sword would not have that extra advantage. I say my suggestion about Assimilation should be incorporated for two weeks as a test and to see how it plays out.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 18:24:20)

@above

If the assim is too low make it higher. For the masacre example, make assimilate lvl 3. Easy.

You also said "With cupids sorrow my support is 15-18 +34 and I only got 9 damage with him being fully malfunctioned having a base support of 45 lower resistance and lower defense that I have. "
That is mathematically impossible. You cannot do only 9 damage when he is malfed. It is impossible. Unless his resistance is over 40 after malf.




Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 19:09:36)

It shouldn't happened but it did with the programng so screwed up and the balance is so unequal anything is possible.

Like I inreased my support to a total of 106 and by all means I should not have got stunned but I was stunned with a level 1 stun grenade and the merc blocked my rage attack with 69 dex because his hybrid armor at max giving him +13 defense 23-28 +1 +13 defense.

With the Bounties having Shadow Arts and the mercs having Hybrid Armor makes them more likly to block the mages strikes more frequently then the mage will block their attacks is that fair and balance.

Like I wrote before to make defense fair and balanced which will only work with a physical and an energy armor not the for a small fee of course all the mage combine the two armors and the extra points go towards defense and resistance, so if you have a physical space armor and an energy space armor +8 from each then that would be +16 for defense and resistance but the slots remain the same, this way no one has to be nerferd but the mage will get the extra defense and resistance.

Who will be the first bounty or merc to say this is excess, it will just show that you don't really want any fairness or balance in anyway and that you want to keep the mage class down.



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 19:14:19)

^ You do know Hybrid armor only increase defense and not chance to block right?
Hybrid armor tends to make Mercs depend less on Dex so chances to hit a Merc is a lot better than BH which is most Dex oriented class. Side-arms and Aux are very useful for Mages but you just need the right type of damage type for your build.
Also it will be unfair that Mages can have 2 Armor on. people will play Mages more and abuse that. It's basically give mages +16 to physical and players will put more stats into the other resulting in more High tech Builds to cause High damage. (basically the Mages version of Str Build)



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 19:38:46)

The first one came on down who is next that wants to keep the mage class down. Let's see incease dex is suppose to increase chance of block and with increase in DEX is an increase in defense so adding 13 to defense increase a chance to block. so since his defense was at 23-28 ad +1 and +13 that would be 37-42 total defense. With support of 106 amd malfunction at max the energy sidearm got 30 and 30 at the max and without malfunction at max got 18 and 19 damage just to show people that mage needs malfunction to make energy weapons effective.

That example was with the space armor so if the mage has a physical armor of +2 and an energy armor of +4 then+6 would go towards resistance and defense and if one armor has +4 slots and the other has +6 then they would get +6 slots, does this further clearify things.

So who is next that does not want to keep the mage class down and don't want things to be fair and more balanced then it is now.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 19:51:21)

@hun king
stop whinning again and again. just find a right build and use it.

@turkish

hmm u r right but still i dont like the idea of them making asim a sword skill. why not make more phy staff than.remember there is always bludgeon when u use a staff it is a strong phy atk. u can also use a gamma bot. there u go 2 phy atk.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 20:10:52)

@HunKing *Facepalm* Now your acting like me when I thought reruote makes you take 30% less dmg because 30% gets turned into energy your acting ignorant.Defence does NOT improve chance to block.Read the decription.Only dex does that Dex may improve defence but defence just reduces physical dmg it does NOT improve block chance.So no only Bounties with SA improve blocking chance hybrid just improves defence.Hybrid make sthem take -13 dmg from each phys attack nothing more no block chance.Thats why Mercs block less then bounties.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 20:19:13)

So tell me Luna what is the right build for a Caster Mage to win against support/strength mercs/bounties.

You tell me to stop whinning, so you are saying I should stop responding to people's questions and comments, when I post a comments it is based on facts and truths and when I come up with a solution it scares players of mercs and bounties and it starting to be more apparent mercs and bounties don't want to see the mage class have any improvements and truly have any Comprehensive Balance incorporated into any part of the game.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 20:24:54)

@Hun kingq- caster builds are UPed. That is a fact. There are no OPed caster builds, and there are only a few that are "competitive". The caster skills of a mage all need balancing. And you are whining. You constanly refuse to adapt to new styles of builds, and you refuse to believe what others are saying.



Luna_moonraider -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 20:35:22)

@hunking
u cant win all types of build in game with just 1 build.there is no such build which alllow u to do so in game now. well they had it last time n i m sure u know what build it is *cough* heal loop *cough*. eg str bh weakness are tank merc. support merc weekness are support mages.weakness of a battle mage is a str bh. the so called best build out there is 5 focus build. i say so called so dun think it is the best build. simply just follow the trend. well there are still lots of str bh and mercs so i suggest making a str counter build. ashari has made 1 some where in this forums. that is what i call using brains. instead of going around screaming mage are Uped ,mage need this mages need that, i do 9 dmg blah blah blah. adept in order to survive. it is just simple.
@tigura
caster build are not uped at low lvl u see how a mage can easily kill wif just 2 hit. well that is for low lvl idk if it works for high lvls. who knows it might work.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 22:54:15)

@luna- Yes, you are right. at low lvls, caster builds are really good. I was refering more to the higher lvls (31+32). I have tried pure caster builds as a 32 varium mage, and they have all failed. I plan on class changing back to mage, and I will probably try some more caster builds to see if they are at all effective.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/8/2011 23:41:30)

It should be the other way around for the caster mage they should have better defense and offense at higher levels so when I made those suggestions of beefing up Assimilation and beefing up armor, people complained that is too excessive. To counter high strength you need high dex. I put my defense at 32 did not block once but everyone else blocked me so how could players with lower dex block me but I don't block them with higher dex?

Luna I am not screaming anything because I don't scream I put up facts, things that happen, and how much damage, then I make a suggestion just like everyone else and players attitudes are, "how dare you suggest anything better for the mage they don't need anything they are too powerful."

So Isaiahthemage you really thought reroute makes you take less damage when I first read about each skill I knew what it did off the bat. With high defense is lesser damage and with a chance of lesser damage is a greater chance to block. So according to all aspects of dex the higher the dex the lesser the damage and the better chance of blocks but I had my total dex above 96 with a physical armor you know how many blocks I got, 0, was the damage lessened, no

Is there any type of balance, no.
Will there ever be any type of balance, no.



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 1:01:03)

^ did you make shore you were not facing someone using energy attacks since it sounds like you put all your effort into preventing Physical attacks rather then energy attacks. Ya the % chance of Block isn't affected by difference between players but by how much you have and unless you're a BH with SA Maxed you'll block less. They probably set the Block to obtain 1% chance of Block every 10 levels of Dex but it's just a guess since it seems block chance is not very significant unless you're a BH with SA.



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