RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (Full Version)

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Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 3:22:35)

@ Hun Kingq

You evidently don't know other classes very well. Defense increases with dexterity, and blocking chance increases with dexterity. It does not follow that defense increases blocking chance. Put it this way. If p, then q. If p, then r. q, therefore r? That's wrong. Thus the hybrid armour of mercs do not increase their blocking chance, nor does defense.

Moreover my example of massacre was not incorrect. Unlike surgical strike, massacre's energy cost is 33, not 32. These misconceptions show that you have not been observing your opponents enough. Having encountered so many bounty hunters, do you still not know the energy cost of massacre? You cannot expect to be able to construct a good build without understanding that of your opponents.

Caster builds do not work well at higher levels, but semi-caster builds do quite well. For example you should not have level 10 overload if you merely want the stun effect, just add 1 to it so you can use overload multiple times or when you are about to die. The reason caster builds do not work at higher levels is because the skills have a limited damage, and tech mages usually go for a focus or support build instead of spamming the stats that increase the skill damage. Moreover with limited stat points, tech mages do not add to energy at higher level but rely on reroute.

Thus you cannot expect a caster build that relies on a volley of attacks while leaving defense wide open to work, because it does not do enough damage to kill the opponent in two hits and it cannot maintain this high damage, unlike support mercs and mages.

Deimos posted a pretty good semi-caster build here via Giras Wolfe, and firstly it does not add the caster skills above 4. You might want to compare it to your build and consider what you are doing wrong. Note that Deimos uses Assimilation.




tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 10:56:34)

quote:

Luna I am not screaming anything because I don't scream I put up facts, things that happen, and how much damage, then I make a suggestion just like everyone else and players attitudes are, "how dare you suggest anything better for the mage they don't need anything they are too powerful."


To me, it sounds like you want the mage class to be OPed because you are not good enough to find a build that works. You should try a wider variety of builds. And I am disagreeing with your opinions, but i am an ex mage and plan on changing class to mage when I get the varium. Why would I want TMs to be UPed?



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 12:23:44)

@Hun King Really?Dex only reduces phsyical dmg NOT all dmg.You seem to not know much about other classes or even that much about yourself.You need to read the description of defencese it reduces phys dmg NOT all dmg.It does not increase chance to block.WTH Dex does not increase chance of to take lesser dmg it decreases chance to take less phys dmg directly no chances involed.Seriously dude you look really ignorant right now.

To everyone I apologize I really see how foolish and ignorant I looked when I thought reroute made you take less dmg I am sorry for that I can see myself as hun king and how ignorant I was.



Calogero -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 13:34:43)

Dex = Melee Defence + certain chance to block
Defence = Damage you take lowered ( or raised, if you are nerved )
Defence doesn't do squad to Block, that's up to the Stat Dex



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 13:50:06)

^ You forgot to mention...
Tech = Energy Defense



Calogero -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 14:23:12)

ow, I thought we were talking about Dex and not Tech :P



orrthehunter -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 14:41:51)

^ ya we're talking about Defense/ Resistance(physical/energy) and blocking in general.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 17:57:54)

What happens to defense when you raise dex, I will let you figure it out. When you put on defense matrix where do you see the green numbers at? When you put on technician the numbers are highlighted by which? When those two things in the stat have those highlighted numbers does not the defense and resistance increase? Since increasing Dex is to increase the chance of blocks and when you increse dex does not your defense increases so if that is fact and it is true and hybrid armor increases defense it is quite obvious it increase dex but you only see it in defense.

Hey IsaiahThemage it quite obvious you made yourself look ignorant if you did not know I was talking about physical attacks all this time when I was refering to not blocking.

Silver Sky Magician before the upgrade massacre required 32 energy unless it got raised again it should still be 32.

Before the programmers messed with block it was balanced between all classes everyone had the same chance of blocking the same percentage of the battle, then they introduced Shadow Arts so the blocking percentage increased for the bounty hunters but decrease for the mercs then decreased even more for the mage. To balance things out increase the block percentage for the mage to equal the bounty hunter since the mercs have a better chance at blocking increase it a small percentage.

Tigura if I am not good enough to find the right build then how come I have beaten so many strength builds and support builds everyone is talking aboout making things balanced but I say let things be fair. Since EMP could take away 39 points of energy and Atom smasher could take away over 35 points of energy when not blocked and since the mage does not block over 90% of the time, so it is effective, then to be fair make Assimilation unblockable and take away 35 points of energy or reduce the energy damage of EMP and Atom Smasher down to 10 and allow both of those skills to have a higher chance of being blocked.

Since the stun grenade and maul at level 1 has an increased stun rate at level 1 then increase the stun rate for level 1 overload.

Since the merc gets to have two armors and the bounties get to have shadow arts and an armor then allow the mage to combine a physical and energy armor giving the combined bonus points to defense and resistance.

Since the bounties multi and the mercs multi is multiple stage attacks then make the plasma rain a two stage or three stage attack.

Since the mage strike is a single attack and the mercs and bounties can have multiple strike attacks increase their damage rate then increase the damage rate of the mages single strike.

These things I mentioned will bring fairness in the game but of course players will say it is excessive and the ones that say what I suggest is excessive more than others are mages themselves and you have to ask, " are they truly a mage" or are they a mino (mage in name only).



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 18:11:49)

@ above : I give up.
While Hybrid or DM adds defense, it skips the dex completely, so dex is not increased, the defense is.
Put simply, while defence is dependent on dex, it is not the other way round.



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 18:46:07)

I went in battle a NPC without defense matrix he got 1, 1, 3 damage but when I put on the defense matrix adding +17 to defense it was block block block so now what do you have to say when I increased my defense (Dex remained the same)with defense matrix my block rate increased.



Crimzon Magi -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 18:52:23)

*Sigh* Defense does NOT increase your chance to block. Dex does. You just got lucky, or maybe he used unblockables before. :P



Light Stridr -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 19:08:08)

@ Hun Kingq: if you want to prove your point, at least partake in at least 3 battles, yeah? Then we might start taking you seriously.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 19:36:24)

@Hun King then you just look even more ignorant because we all know defence reduce phsy dmg and you say it doesnt.And you say def improves blocking chance dex improves defence but it is only that way not vice versa.You seem to not understand hybrid armor gives extra defence reducing phsy and energy dmg from all attacks while SA just improves blocking chance.Dex improves def and blocking chance defence just reduces phsy dmg and hybrid is extra def and SA is extra blocking chance.How many times.Read the description of defence when someone uses DM their defence increases reducing phsy dmg do you seem them block alot because they have + 30 def NO that only happens if they use reflex boost.*Sigh* Whatever like Light Stdr said I give up.Believe what you shall.You wont get anywhere in a conversation.And your saying masscre requires 32 energy then become a bounty and see what lvl 1 masscre requires.You really know nothing.How are you gonna tell me lvl 1 massscre requires a 32 energy when I saw it myself.Do you not check the stats on a bounty with a lvl 1 masscre?Or have you even beeen one?No No and obviously No.Seriously man no one takes you seriously.



od -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 19:56:41)

I don't know why evreyone thinks that f2p Bh are uped w/out rares. You can just modify My build with divine daggers+derringer+ballistic cannon +pred armor to be like this:
hp:93
Mp:47
Str:40+4
Dex:49+20
Tec:42+10
Sup:40+2
Then use a skill tree similar to what I used.



H4ll0w33n -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 19:57:09)

@Hung Kingq

1. defense doesnt increase block.
2. Assimilation => unblockable, 35 points of energy is OPed and do your math for that :P
3. Nerfing atom smasher and EMP will mean nerfing assimilate.
4. stun grenade at level 1 is equal to overload at level 1, maul at level 1 has more damage but lower stun % than overload at level 1.
5. Merc only has one passive, the BH passive nerf allows them to have 2, Mages should deserve to have 2 so adding resistance and defense is OPed. And how does Shadow Arts have to do with 2 armors????
6. BH multi and TM multi is the same, mercenaries is better. It does need a buff.
7. Mages skills being single attack and Merc/BH skills being multiple attacks means nothing! Its the exact same damage. So mages dont need to have increased damage rate.

Overall. DO YOUR RESEARCH.

If you want to prove something, do math.



Wraith -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 21:21:39)

@H4LLOW33N

#7 Proved

I made two level , er 5, accounts(to even out the str) I used tm with 8 more str(To compensate for the +2 dmg that LightBlades have, and to compensate for res + def) and both did 8 on strike. On Multi, tm did 14 and bh did 13, which is simlar enough.

Quote removed. I know it wasn't your fault, since I had to delete some posts in between for an issue. ~Mecha



Mecha Mario -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/9/2011 22:21:20)

Remember to keep it civil everyone. Even when somebody is wrong, don't flame them. Be polite and tell them that something isn't correct.

[Hun Kingq] : Actually, only Reflex Boost increase the blocking chance, because it actually increase dexterity. Dexterity increase blocking rate. Your Defense doesn't affect your blocking rate at all. So Defense Matrix and Hybrid Armor does help increase your defense, but it doesn't increase your blocking rate, since your dexterity is still the same. You were just lucky when your block from that NPC.

Here's a link to ED Wiki How things are calculated: Blocking page that further explains how blocking is calculated. Please note that it doesn't say anything about defense at all. Only dexterity increases it.



Illuminator -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 0:36:55)

I am going to refer back to Xendran's post about balancing stats.
I think that making all the stats equal to each other is a great place to start. The only thing that concerns me is this:
quote:

Armors would gain a significant boost in their +def and +res. All armors would give both res and def, however would lean towards def or res at a 2:1 ratio


Would that not give a severe disadvantage to those who don't have an armor? At level 27+ it really isn't a problem, however what about a 25 who has an armor against a 24 who isn't high enough level for one. (except the level 15 ones which are very hard for low levels to afford)
Also what if a player just can't afford an armor? Would they not be completely destroyed by anyone who has an armor due to armors giving even more defense and resistance than they do now?



Shocka -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 1:09:39)

Hun Kingq: I think you need to stop arguing if you don't understand how the game core engine works first.
I am not going to repeat what everyone has already said but you are wrong.



tigura -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 2:41:08)

@Hun kingq-

One cannot consider himself/herself 'good' because he/she can beat a str build. There are many players who can beat these builds, although not consistantly (due to many random factors that seem to occur when fighting extreme str merc builds).

Also, if you really want things to be fair, then atom smasher and emp would only be able to take away 10 energy. Of course they would also do a regular strike in the same turn, just like assimilate. This means that (in the case of str mercs) you are receiving 40 or so damage.

Please read the links that mecha mario has provided, as these will hopefully help you fully understand the game better.

@mecha mario- sorry I was starting to lose it a little, I am just getting a little frustrated. But in the future, I will do my best to be kinder. ;)



Hun Kingq -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 2:46:02)

IsaiahtheMage you are the one that is looking more ignorant by each post you are wriyting things that are opposite what I write so go back and read my posts with an open mind maybe you will learn something. One Dex and defense goes hand in hand the high the dex your have the higher the defense you have and defense is suppose to limit physical damage but I know for fact because I had defense all the way up to 32 and a strength bounty hunter got 32 damage per claw attack strength merc got 35 damage, so how do you get defense up to 32, that is right higher dex. Then the next time I battle the same merc I put on defense matrix, little damage and I was blocking, my dex was not increase but my defense was increased. with the strength bounty hunter with defense matrix on he still got 30 damage per strike, this was without smoke. I did create a bounty hunter and did screen shots of each skill highlighted so I know what energy each level 1 skill takes level 1 massacre use to take 32 energy because I looke at a bounty hunter stats when I battle him but it probably increased to 33 after the upgrade, like reroute had a cool down of 1 before the upgrade and now it has no cool down.

Speaking of cool down, IsaiahtheMage, you need to cool down before you fry something. To constantly call me ignorant when you know nothing about me shows me that you have a closed mind and if you knew anything about me or my background then maybe you could gain some knowledge and insight.

Gamma Evolution 1.1.3 - Friday, December 17th, 2010
"Shadow Arts: A truly skilled Bounty Hunter's reflexes are so finely honed, that time appears to slow, making incoming attacks easier to avoid. This skill passively increases block rate, deflection rate, and stun rate by 1% per level of investment. "

Mecha Mario that blocking calculation is out of date since the introduction of Shadow Arts because I had 100 dex total bounty hunter had 55 dex total with shadow Arts at max I did not block once and he blocked every physical attack. Strength merc had 45 dex total with hydbrid Armor at max I did not block but he did. For some reason with defense matrix at level 1 I block against mercs and npcs (98% of the time) but not bounty hunters. A new mathimatical equation has to be done.

H4ll0w33n to make things fair if one skill could take away over 30 points of energy for one or two classes then why not for the third and nerfing Assimilation to what take away only 1 energy point for level 10. Shadow Arts is a virtual armor that does not need to be activated. What is wrong with the mage having a hybrid armor as well, that cost no energy. So a mage single strike damage of 12 is the same as the multi attack of 30 to 40.
I have seen the damage each class has on each other and for mercs, bounties or mages in name only players to say that mages, bounties, and mercs have the same exact damage you need to look again. I don't need to do math to prove anything because the kind of math I would use would be programming math (which none of you would understand).

I have over 11000 battles so when I post what happened I post the exact amount so Light Stridr as you can see I did well over 3 battles.

It is funny other people complain make suggestions an I don't attack you or put down your suggestions but when I report/ complain about something and make suggestions I get attack and my suggestions get severly put down showing who has lack of maturity.

So now we can really see that this talk about people wanting a Comprehensive Balance is nothing but hot air, that people want to keep the mage class down, and that is sad and is greedy.



Larcell -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 7:11:42)

A debuff for support would solve 50% of the unbalanced problems.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 7:50:18)

^ A debuff for support will make strong STR builds More stronger.Idk did you see but 1vs1 leaderboard is almost all STR BH



Mecha Mario -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 8:41:51)

[Hun Kingq] : I didn't include Shadow Arts, cause I thought we talking about defense only.

Here's the description of Dexterity and Defense in-game:
quote:

Dexterity
Dexterity boost defense, increases the chance to block, and enhanced certain skills.

quote:

Defense
Reduces all physical damage inflicted from an enemy, affected by dexterity and agility


If Defense does increase blocking (which is incorrect), than the description for Defense in-game needs to be change. It doesn't actually say anything about that it increases the chance to block.

Anyway, the formula for blocking is still the same. Just that for whatever the level Shadow Arts is, it adds to that amount to the formula at the end. Lets use your example with the bounty hunter.

Example 1:

Defender (You) have 100 Dexterity
Attacker (Bounty Hunter) have 55 Dexterity

Block Adjustment = (100 - 55) / 2 = 22.5
Chance to Block = 10 + 22.5 = 32.5%

Example 2:

Defender(Bounty Hunter) have 55 Dexterity
Attacker (You) have 100 Dexterity

Block Adjustment = (55 - 100) / 2 = -22.5
Chance to Block = 10 + -22.5 = -12.5%
Since the block chance can never reduce below 4%, the Chance to Block becomes 4%
Since Shadow Arts is level 10, it adds 10% to it.
Chance to Block = 4 +10 = 14%

You were just unlucky (Not talking about Support), when they block you.

I also have an alt Tech Mage and I do use my level 1 Defense Matrix. You block 98% of the time, because you were lucky when that happen. You didn't increase your blocking chance at all actually. I, however, didn't have that 98% blocking like you have said when I use Defense Matrix. Its because I'm not lucky as you with my Tech Mage when using Defense Matrix.



Silver Sky Magician -> RE: A Comprehensive Balance Discussion (2/10/2011 9:18:08)

@ Hun Kingq

Why would anyone want to keep the mage class down? The whole point of this game is competition and pitting skills against one another. You completely eliminated the possibility that you could be wrong, not that people are trying to squash your class.

Though and since you have fought over 11000 battles, your ignorance, not that of IsaiahtheMage's, is astonishing. Massacre has costed 33 energy since the beginning of beta. I have also never seen any evidence that Massacre's energy cost has been changed, even in Alpha. Ask anyone and they can tell you that. How can you, who claims to be an experienced fighter, fail to notice this?

There is a luck factor in this game. Every single player here can tell you that Defense does NOT increase blocking chance. You are even trying to argue against game mechanics.

Moreover the reason why mercs can do more damage with their multi is because it has defense ignoring capabilities and they generally have more support then mages have tech. Bounty hunters' multi, while lacking any defense ignoring capabilities, depends on dex, and again most bounty hunters have more dex than mages have tech.

You claim to use 'programming maths' to do these calculations, and assume again that none of us would understand this. Have you considered that you might be wrong, and you are the one with the 'closed mind'? You don't have a basic understanding of this game and this is shown in every one of your false assumptions:

1. Defense boosts blocking chance
2. Mercs and bounty hunters have more powerful multis because their multis are double-hit
3. Massacre has an energy cost of 32
4. Level 1 stun grenade and Level 1 maul has a greater stun chance than level 1 overload

Have you considered that the reason your suggestions are so severely criticised is because they are so very bad, yet you keep defending them using a combination of biasness, an inaccurate understanding of game mechanics and fallacious logic? Due to this you cannot see the fundamental differences between assimilation and other energy-draining skills, and are hence unable to comprehend why it is unsuitable to buff assimilation, especially in the extreme manner described.

You even make the suggestion that mages should have hybrid armour. Just the fact that you can make this suggestion without considering the consequences removes all possibility of your 'programming maths' having any reliability at all. And I seriously question the veracity of some of your 'facts'. You claim to have seen that Massacre needs 32 energy. That is obviously not a fact. Therefore your other claims, like all your examples, your number of battles and your amazing 98% block rate with defense matrix are put into question by your other false 'factual examples'.

What you are refuting are not subjective arguments but solid facts. From someone who cannot even grasp the workings of this game after 11000 battles, how can we accept your arguments, especially such unreasonable ones?



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