RE: Mercenary 2.0 [Full Class Rebalance]


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1/29/2014 5:52:50

Xendran
Member

Bounty Hunter has been added.

Notable playstyle differences: Venom Strike no longer requires claws and is more powerful with swords. Claws have their own unique DoT in the form of Bloodlust.
Shadow Arts has been given an extreme buff, bringing it to the usability level of Hybrid Armor.
This class has a large variety of ways to gain health when they keep their energy high enough to take advantage of their skills.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 5:57:49 >

Epic

Post #: 26

1/29/2014 6:33:32

Ranloth
Banned

I am really unsure about Venom Strike. 280 EP cost at Lvl 10, and assuming 400 damage - I can get that with +45 Str and +300 damage weapon (L31) - it would give me a DoT of 148, which is quite high, and that's not even L40. With how low HP is, I'd say the Poison is too high. Personally, I'd cap it at 30%. With my assumed damage, it'd be DoT of 120 - just a bit weaker than current Lvl 10 one - but no Claws requirement either. Besides, you can always increase Strength and you gain weapon damage, so it's not too shabby.

Bingo with Shadow Arts. I've suggested almost the same kind of skill for TMs before, since I found their defense crap, but then scraped the idea.

Massacre applies lifesteal for 3 turns, right - including the turn you use it? If so, I'd make it scale with level; last resort move, use it in 2v2, deal guaranteed 200 damage, and your ally has an advantage. Unless the lifesteal is just for you, then I guess that'd be alright.

BloodLust sounds nifty, but a bit unclear. The DoT is applied after I attack (and % of it is applied as DoT), or is it like Poison? 300 damage * 0.16 = 48 damage. Isn't that strong, damage wise, either and there's Frenzy for HP as well. I guess that balances it out well. I like the requirement on BL as well; you either have both and enjoy the nifty DoT's or opt-out for a Sword and enjoy other bonuses.

One complaint: why are Claws necessary to use Replicant Fury (Multi)? o.O Kinda unfair, since Multis are meant to be available for everyone, instead of restricting them. Although, removing requirement from Multi would leave new BHs with 2 skills requiring Claws. Unless we completely forgo the concept of "each class must have 3 weapon-specific skils" and keep it between 2-4 skills between classes (depends on skills, class, etc.)?

Epic

Post #: 27

1/29/2014 6:51:19

Xendran
Member

Because multis are not required to be viable in 2v2, i restrict all of them to weapons to create a bit more variety in the different weapon types and playstyles in 2v2.
Ultimate, Multi and one skill is my current method of implementation for weapon restrictions.

As for venom strike, it's primary damage not strike damage. It does not scale at all with strength, and the current numbers place it at the same (give or take 1-2 damage) damage as current poison when level capped.
Bloodlust is very similar to poison, however it does scale off of strike damage, but the initial value that the percentage is based on is hit with def/res.

If we treat it as skills that deal damage creating a gap in hp, rather than considering only raw damage we end up with this:
300 Damage Bloodlust (which is pretty high, you would need very high str, be facing a low-def character, or some sort of debuff to pull that off. One thing i forgot to add is that raging with bloodlust will deal extra damage, but your DoT is based on the non-rage number)
ends up with a total created HP gap of 384. Using maxed poison with claws creates an HP gap of 390 + Initial Hit damage.
Very similar effectiveness, however bloodlust requires more investment to work to the same effect. I do think it's a bit too effective, so i'm going to increase the cost a bit to justify the power, and the fact that it cannot be cured via field medic.

Massacre does not apply life steal, the wording is very literal: It grants 20% lifesteal for the Massacre attack, and whatever health you would have gained is given to you evenly over the course of three turns.

EDIT: I'm going to tweak frenzy as well.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 6:56:22 >

Epic

Post #: 28

1/29/2014 6:56:57

Ranloth
Banned

I always derp the wording, blame it on either being early or late. <.<

True that, Multis aren't necessary in 2v2 anymore. Just assumed they will always remain non-weapon specific, especially after Staff requirement was removed from Plasma Rain.

Yeah, that's good enough for me. Would be quite interesting to see the combo in action, and the possible builds you could create from it.

Epic

Post #: 29

1/29/2014 7:00:06

Xendran
Member

I've replaced frenzy's support requirement with support scaling.
Bloodlust has had its cost increased bringing it to 295 at level 10. This brings it in line with other high damage skills, with a bit of extra overall effectivenes compared to raw damage skills with similar stat investment due to the damage not being applied as deadly burst damage.
Specified in bloodlust that it's dot is not impacted by Rage, Critical Strike or Block.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 7:04:24 >

Epic

Post #: 30

1/29/2014 7:31:13

Striker44
Member

CH's need Frenzy more than BH since they have already bloodlust , also they need an physical atack skill (is only class without one). All new skills must have a better synergy than current ones.

Post #: 31

1/29/2014 7:38:24

Xendran
Member

Spark blitz deals physical damage, and CH is not about health. It's all about energy. BH is the master of HP manipulation.
CH also has energy damage that pierces resist, which is useful for avoiding high res. CH also has more options in terms of tankiness rather than damage.
You can also have Diamond Blades be a physical skill by using physical claws. This is no longer a big disadvantage because the class no longer has Malfunction.

I design much more complicated skill synergies and balancing than this while working on my own game, and i have 4 years of experience with epicduel so i believe i have a good handle on skill synergy. It also encourages players to spend points on base energy.

In fact, you can use a synergy to emulate frenzy: Static Barrier + Static Charge. Barrier essentially turns your energy pool into a secondary health pool, and static charge increases that pool to that it can remain in use.
The combination even has a simlarity to frenzy's defence ignore in Static Charge's secondary abilities.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 7:41:00 >

Epic

Post #: 32

1/29/2014 9:01:18

Xendran
Member

Just a teaser as to what's coming, the bolded ones are ones you can recognize from other threads (although heavily rebalanced)

===TACTICAL MERCENARY===
Field Medic - Protean Smash - Mineral Armor
Plasma Cannon - Sabotage - Overclock
Energy Diversion - ??? - Surgical Strike
Terminate - Atom Splitter - Black Widow

===BLOOD MAGE===
Field Medic - Fireball - Blood Shield
Jugular Strike - Mark of Blood - Hemorrhage
Deadly Aim - Intimidate - Napalm
Blood Magic - Exsanguinate - Soul Split

===TECH MAGE===
Field Medic - Defence Matrix - Plasma Bolt
Technician - Bludgeon - Overload
Malfunction - Reroute - Plasma Rain
Assimilation - Supercharge - Fire Scythe

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 12:29:40 >

Epic

Post #: 33

1/29/2014 13:18:37

toopygoo
Member

although im not posting stuff, im reading it and getting super pumped! :P

AQW

Epic

Post #: 34

1/29/2014 13:21:16

Xendran
Member

Guess what time it is?
Blood mage time.

Just like the others, tweaks will be made based on logical feedback. So far i've been very impressed with the quality of posts in this thread.

EDIT: For anybody who is reading the first post during me editing it, Exsanguinate improves with tech and Blood Magic requires a staff.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 13:28:56 >

Epic

Post #: 35

1/29/2014 13:46:13

Hun Kingq
Member

What I always suggested is each class have its own set of skills to break the link between them which makes it easier to balance and deal with wthout affecting other classes.

Plasma Cannon needs to stay as a Blood Mage skill that shows the evolution from Tech Mage to Blood Mage but that skill needs to be improve to be balance with Bunker Buster because as those two skill stands Bunker Buster is more powerful than Plasma Cannon.

Blood Shield would just link them to tact merc and does not help boost tech, when get malfunctioned.

A different skill than make of Blood is needed.

Since they use a query database you would have to think of a new name for Intimidation. A debuff skill that would affect more than one stat would truly strike the fear in the opposing players

Epic	Post #: 36

1/29/2014 13:50:31

Ranloth
Banned

I like clarifications. Soul Split - the 20% damage dealt is taken from Caster's health and x2 of that goes to EP, yes? Apart from that, yay for a decent Energy returning skill, as well as drain. It's actually useful! 100% damage on attack too, I assume? No mention of it. :p

BloodShield. After its recent revamp, it's worth using so goes nicely with MoB. I wouldn't mind BMs getting it now, at all.

Jugular Strike is the replacement for Plasma Cannon. Aiming for the throat. So it'll use your total Primary damage for it, eh? And I'm assuming it remains unblockable as well - since Plasma Cannon cannot be avoided either. Although, I'm not sure. We can compare it to Double Strike in terms of damage bonus, minus the effects. I honestly don't know. Plasma Cannon is a vital skill in my build, so it'd be a shame to see it go for Melee-based skill - even if unblockable.

Blood Magic sounds VERY interesting, except for one thing - turn cost, right? There's no gain, apart from EP to HP conversion, and you may end up dead instead. Or it's me overexaggerating. I was thinking, what if it didn't cost a turn to active (if possible) and once activated, you cannot reverse it. Unless, you boost HP:EP ratio, for this skill alone, such as 1.25:1, which means there is some gain and compensates for increase HP cost on skills. Regardless, I love the concept.

Exsanguinate is interesting, but a bit confusing. I can cast it with pure HP, if possible, right? What if I don't have enough EP but enough HP - what becomes of the effect; does it still steal life or damage opponent's Energy?

Intimidate, heh. I've suggested almost the same concept before, but %-decrease in weapon damage instead. In other words, yes.

The return of Deadly Aim. Increase should be good enough for the low cost, and I assume it remains deflectable as well - just damage increase? Requiring Sidearm is something new, unless it doesn't put it into cooldown, then that's perfect.

I must say, you've nailed the concepts for Multis, for all classes so far. Unique but equal. But synergy bugs me for BMs. 23 Support skills (Multi + Intimidate + BloodShield), 1 Dex skill (Stun), 1 Tech skill (Ultimate), and rest are dependant on weapon damage and/or Strength. What about the lack of +Dex/+Def skill? Blood Magic replaced Reflex Boost, and the replacement has nothing to do with increasing your Defense.
Jugular Strike would be nice on Tech, instead of Strength/Primary, but I need clarification from you first. ~~And Support builds are now lacking a good build~~; heavily Strength oriented, based on DA, JStrike, SSplit, and even MoB. ~~On current skilltree, they can lower opponent's damage and have two Shields.~~ Dex builds have defense and two skills, which would be lowered to one, and Tech builds would be almost useless, unless you go for Ultimate. Not mentioning too many Strength skills could lead to abuse of one efficient build (MoB + DA + SS + JS - assuming the last one improves with total Primary damage).

There has to be better synergy between skills. Numbers and concept are great, but synergy isn't so good.

Edited, because I forgot BloodShield improves with Support now, so crossed out the relevant parts. <.<

< Message edited by Trans -- 1/29/2014 14:04:04 >

Epic

Post #: 37

1/29/2014 13:51:25

Xendran
Member

quote:

Plasma Cannon needs to stay as a Blood Mage skill that shows the evolution from Tech Mage to Blood Mage but that skill needs to be improve to be balance with Bunker Buster because as those two skill stands Bunker Buster is more powerful than Plasma Cannon.

What? Why? The blood-based magic being hybrided with powerful melee skills is what makes it a tech mage evolution. It makes more sense on tac merc, as it is directly related to Bunker Buster.

quote:

Blood Shield would just link them to tact merc and does not help boost tech, when get malfunctioned.

Neither does energy shield, which it currently has. This is done on purpose. Also how does blood shield link it to tactical mercenary? Check the tac merc tree i posted, blood shield has been removed from it.

quote:

Since they use a query database you would have to think of a new name for Intimidation. A debuff skill that would affect more than one stat would truly strike the fear in the opposing players

This is a really specific request and doesn't actually make thematic sense, nor would it be as beneficial. Also there is no need for it to be renamed because it's a full remake of the skill. No other class has intimidate. There are no overlaps anymore.

---

quote:

I like clarifications. Soul Split - the 20% damage dealt is taken from Caster's health and x2 of that goes to EP, yes? Apart from that, yay for a decent Energy returning skill, as well as drain. It's actually useful! 100% damage on attack too, I assume? No mention of it. :p

20% of the damage you deal is removed from your health, and then double the health you lost is given to you as energy. 100% strike damage.

quote:

Jugular Strike is the replacement for Plasma Cannon. Aiming for the throat. So it'll use your total Primary damage for it, eh? And I'm assuming it remains unblockable as well - since Plasma Cannon cannot be avoided either. Although, I'm not sure. We can compare it to Double Strike in terms of damage bonus, minus the effects. I honestly don't know. Plasma Cannon is a vital skill in my build, so it'd be a shame to see it go for Melee-based skill - even if unblockable.

Some stuff i overlooked that partially gets addressed here and as part of other questions. Deadly Aim will be getting technology scaling, jugular strike will be getting block effectiveness reduction.

It's similar to double strike damage, but with bludgeon cooldown in exchange for added effect.

quote:

Blood Magic sounds VERY interesting, except for one thing - turn cost, right? There's no gain, apart from EP to HP conversion, and you may end up dead instead. Or it's me overexaggerating. I was thinking, what if it didn't cost a turn to active (if possible) and once activated, you cannot reverse it. Unless, you boost HP:EP ratio, for this skill alone, such as 1.25:1, which means there is some gain and compensates for increase HP cost on skills. Regardless, I love the concept.

I should clarify that it doesn't cost a turn. I usually take things literally so you notice some skills say "Cost: 0 (1 turn)", but yes i should clarify that for others who don't take things in games as literally as i do.

quote:

Exsanguinate is interesting, but a bit confusing. I can cast it with pure HP, if possible, right? What if I don't have enough EP but enough HP - what becomes of the effect; does it still steal life or damage opponent's Energy?

Exsanguinate will always* try to pay with energy first. If the energy payment fails due to not enough energy, it will pay in health.
Also, it never damages the opponents energy. It restores your energy based on 35% of the damage you deal if it gets paid in health. I will reword it slightly to clarify how this works.

*the exception to the rule of always casting out of energy first is if Blood Magic is active.

quote:

The return of Deadly Aim. Increase should be good enough for the low cost, and I assume it remains deflectable as well - just damage increase? Requiring Sidearm is something new, unless it doesn't put it into cooldown, then that's perfect.

Deflectable, but it does not put your sidearm into cooldown. It cannot be used if you do not have a sidearm equipped.

quote:

There has to be better synergy between skills. Numbers and concept are great, but synergy isn't so good.

I'm going to have Deadly Aim be the pseudo-replacement to Plasma Cannon by giving it technology scaling.
I left out a dex increase because i tried to focus the class around being extremely aggressive, regardless of your stat of choice.
Deadly Aim on tech will be good, because its More Damage does not scale at all with additional sidearm damage granted by strength.
~~Mark of Blood is going to have something dexterity related. I didn't actually realize that i left the class with only one dex skill.~~

EDIT: hur dur forgot fireball was still in this tree. It's now a dex skill.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 14:18:23 >

Epic

Post #: 38

1/29/2014 14:17:56

Ranloth
Banned

Yeah, Tech scaling on DA should do the job. Still a bit lacking, but meh, that's me being used to my Plasma Cannon build for months now, so can't help it. >.>

Still, about the replacement of Reflex Boost - what will BMs have to cover themselves from Physical damage, if they get their Dex debuffed? Every class has some form of defensive skill for both types, and Hybrid Armor works for both.
Unless, you wanna integrate it into Blood Shield's effect? Perhaps bump up the HP cost by a little (100-125 HP), and make it reduce ANY incoming damage until the Shield is broken (i.e. Lvl 10 Blood Shield could have a cap of =(Your Level * Skill Level * 2), or as an example, =(40 * 10 * 2.5) which is equal to 1,000 damage.

Thinking about it, Shields already have a similar decrease in damage, if you take into account the whole duration of 'em; Energy Shield/Defense Matrix can get you +200 Res/Def with medicore Support at Lvl 3, for 150 EP. We're talking about Lvl 10 example, Player Level 40, with HP cost, and infinite duration (until 1,000 damage is dealt).

What do you think?

Epic

Post #: 39

1/29/2014 14:19:03

Xendran
Member

quote:

Unless, you wanna integrate it into Blood Shield's effect? Perhaps bump up the HP cost by a little (100-125 HP), and make it reduce ANY incoming damage until the Shield is broken (i.e. Lvl 10 Blood Shield could have a cap of =(Your Level * Skill Level * 2), or as an example, =(40 * 10 * 2.5) which is equal to 1,000 damage.

Where did you get this mind reading technology?
Or have you been playing path of exile and got the idea the same way i did, from Molten Shell :P
I'm going to scale it with support still, though.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 14:22:57 >

Epic

Post #: 40

1/29/2014 14:21:04

Ranloth
Banned

I've suggested this for BloodShield as well, quite a long time ago - we're talking about late Gamma or early Delta. :p

And yeah, keep it on Support scaling, perhaps to boost the *2.5 multiplier (such as +0.01 every +1 Support). As your level goes up, and you train the BloodShield, it'd start becoming noticeable, especially since *0.01 is granted per +1 Support. For an average Focus 5 build, we're talking about increase of +0.2x, which does make a difference.

< Message edited by Trans -- 1/29/2014 14:27:23 >

Epic

Post #: 41

1/29/2014 14:31:57

Xendran
Member

I'm going to raise that health requirement to be a regular cost, though, now that it's going to be a real skill rather than a "oh crap this class sucks, need an OP shield real fast" skill.

Epic

Post #: 42

1/29/2014 14:33:52

vordalthe2nd
Member

@xendran
First of all, I think it is amazing that you took the time to make all of these revamps( whether it ends up being used or not). Secondly, I really like some of your ideas and i do think they should be implemented. Lastly, although i doubt that every one of these will be used, i feel that the devs should actually take a look at this and see what works.

< Message edited by vordalthe2nd -- 1/29/2014 14:34:39 >

Post #: 43

1/29/2014 14:36:16

Ranloth
Banned

Yeah. It was just as an example. Although, would the reduction from BloodShield have a cap (per attack) or nullify all the damage, so they'd end up dealing 0 damage and damage the Shield instead? They'd also get no rage - unlike from other Shields - so yeah.

@below
Bingo. Perfect.

< Message edited by Trans -- 1/29/2014 14:40:54 >

Epic

Post #: 44

1/29/2014 14:39:09

Xendran
Member

Blood Shield
Sacrifice health to activate a shield that prevents a % of all damage;
This shield has an infinite duration until it prevents an amount of total damage;

Total Damage Prevention increases by +1 per level
Improves With: Support - +10 Damage at 22 support - 5 Damage per 1 support

Cost: 125 Health + 15 Energy per level after 1
Level 1: 9% Damage Reduction | 87 Damage
Level 2: 11% Damage Reduction | 144 Damage
Level 3: 13% Damage Reduction | 201 Damage
Level 4: 15% Damage Reduction | 258 Damage
Level 5: 17% Damage Reduction | 315 Damage
Level 6: 19% Damage Reduction | 372 Damage
Level 7: 21% Damage Reduction | 429 Damage
Level 8: 23% Damage Reduction | 486 Damage
Level 9: 25% Damage Reduction | 543 Damage
Level 10: 27% Damage Reduction | 600 Damage

Example: 80 Support + Maxed Blood Shield + Level 40 = 940 Total Damage

I accidentally scaled it flat slower than shields, when in reality it actually needs to scale slower than triple the shield scaling. 5 per support after 22 seems good.

That seems to fix it up nicely. Reworked Blood Shield to be both more unique and versatile, Fireball swapped to dex scaling to make up for lack of dex skills and having a ridiculous amount of strength skills previusly, deadly aim onto tech to allow for a defensive scaling non-strength based but still weapon-based skill and making up for loss of plasma cannon.

I knew blood mage was going to be the hardest to balance out of the ones i've done so far, thanks for the help.
As much as I'm disappointed with the developers of epicduel in regards to their ability to create unique and interesting, but well balanced skills, i have to admit that it was the utter brokenness of this game that drove me to where i am today in regards of being in charge of game mechanics design and balance in a company, and without epicduel providing that drive i wouldn't be the vice president of said company.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 14:52:14 >

Epic

Post #: 45

1/29/2014 14:49:27

Mother1
Member

@ xendran

I think you meant to up health instead of energy for the blood shield since in the description it talks about giving up health to use this shield not energy.

Epic	Post #: 46

1/29/2014 14:52:05

Xendran
Member

No, it increases in energy cost as you level it. You sacrifice health still, but the health cost does not increase. Instead, levelling it past one grants it an additional energy cost.
Actually i'm going to raise that cost to 15, i just realized how cheap that skill is when combined with a properly balanced skill tree.

EDIT: For anybody interested in how tech mage will be rebalanced: Currently one of the biggest problems isn't the fact that mages can push so much energy and energy control, it's the fact that doing so almost always puts people in a lose-lose situation:

Drain my energy and deal 0 or 85% damage and leave me alive longer, when you could be dealing over 100% damage that turn with a skill, especially on a rage, or some other beneficial move. (This is especially true of Tac Merc, Merc and Bounty Hunter, as it is far too easy to force them to waste turns of debuffs with forced 0 damage energy drainers.)

or
Don't drain my energy and LOLRAGEBLUDGEON/LOLHEALLOOP

This will be addressed with a heavily rebalanced and tweaked reroute, that is applied to an enemy on strike. Or not, if you choose ;)
An interesting thing is that reroute has a completely different effect if you use it on your partner, and another completely different effect if you use it on yourself. It will be by far the most versatile skill in terms of energy, but it will not be free like battery backup.
Can you imagine if Mark of Blood was an instant +300 health for zero cost like how battery backup is an instant +300 energy? And in the case of some classes, battery backup IS an extra 300 health, because they end up going for your energy instead of attacking, basically giving you that EP as an extra life buffer.

< Message edited by Xendran -- 1/29/2014 15:10:07 >

Epic

Post #: 47

1/29/2014 15:39:40

dfo99
Member

i dislike the bloodmage revamp. maybe will be a several nerf in the class

Post #: 48

1/29/2014 15:43:28

Ranloth
Banned

Balance is not a playground for kids, therefore, feedback is necessary. Constructive at that. You dislike it - that's fine! What is wrong with it? Why? How would you improve it? You shouldn't expect a thoughtful reply to your post, when you give absolutely no feedback about the suggestion. Balance is a serious topic, not "supported" or "not supported" - you should back up your statements.

Epic

Post #: 49

1/29/2014 15:50:55

Mother1
Member

Looking at all the new skill tree's their is only one thing I see bad about them. Most of the changes to old in new skills seems to have that increase to complexity which in turn could end up confusing the group this game is now targeted to which are kids.

Maybe a tutorial should be added on the class skills as well if any of these ideas do get implemented so as not to scare off the targeted audience.

Epic	Post #: 50

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