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RE: Issues with wars and how to improve them?

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2/21/2015 12:45:37   
Zork Knight
Member

Perhaps add some incentive to do the bombing run instead of catapults. Bombing Runs are DL-only, no? Maybe make them count as more wins (since you defeat dozens of monsters on them, instead of the usual 5-6 of normal waves and catapults).
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 101
2/21/2015 12:46:35   
Arthur Glacier
Member

quote:

We cannot do those any longer going by the above wants. I do not have the ability to do anything on my own for a war anymore so you all lose out on class revamp related wars AND on any further storylines created by me because they are usually my own work.

OK.
How about side-taking wars that would decide about something small?

For example:
Twilly Clones vs. Zorbak Clones
The winner's portrait will be in on the wall in Falconreach inn.

I know it looks silly, it's just an example.

That was referring to the "you all want giant wars" option. If you're fine with small wars, like most people seem to be after me going "ummm...guys", then we can still do them they would just be non-amazing like the last one. ~Ash

< Message edited by Ash -- 2/21/2015 12:48:25 >
DF  Post #: 102
2/21/2015 13:09:54   
megakyle777
Member

quote:

They actually all work exactly the same. It's just the layering of art over them that's different. Endless is just we set the wave count to something crazy high like 99999999999 and then you just have to last till X date with a funky coded meter. I was more referring to war waves. Like foot/catapult/supply/etc.


Oh, well if they all work the same and it's only art, then it should be easy to do all the types listed in my post when appropriate right? #Lawyer'd

But seriously, I think if that's the case then just using different applications of the already existing war system with art and the like would go a long way.

For example, And I'm not sure if this is possible, another type of war could be against one ultra powerful enemy like Seppy or AQ;'s Carnax. All you'd need to do is show the meter counting down rather then up with appropriate health numbers. Heck, it'd probably be easier, since all you'd need is 1 foe to code in too. Plus it makes the foe look like a bonafide badass.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 2/21/2015 13:11:13 >
DF  Post #: 103
2/21/2015 14:11:59   
David the Wanderer
Legendary AK!


 I think I'm going to throw my two cents in.

1) I think right now, one big issue that has been risen is that both the community and the staff feels burnt out from wars. Now, most of the community likes wars, but we do realize you can't always pull a flashy and over the top war to make it more enjoyable to fight. Personally, I think a good solution would be to do fewer wars (limiting to Friday the 13th and big, storyline-relevant wars. Try to avoid making wars just to appease the more warmongering playerbase), possibly with as much time as possible between them so nobody gets burnt out. Now, if two or more wars happen to be close (like it is happening right now), I think it'd help if they were kept small and easy, so that the players don't get too tired. One million waves for Friday the 13th was good, as were the five millions waves for the Dragonrider War. I think what happened is that we were a bit too sure of ourselves and underestimated the challenge, which, coupled with the smaller playerbase and the fact that we weren't outright told the war had a deadline and a consequence if we lost, made us lose.

2) War incentives. They are helpful, because they make the players more motivated to fight harder. Now, I understand perfectly that with the smaller staff, it's not always possible to make a lot of sets as rewards for every war that happens, but I think being told that "If you lose [bad thing happens]/if you win [good thing happens]" counts as enough incentive for me.

3) I agree with the sentiment that, if wars have a deadline, it's better if it's stated outright from the start (possibly in the DNs, the forums and the game itself). The deadline can be moved around, but knowing from the start we don't have infinite time probably helps.

4) Consequences. I think it's better that the bigger consequences are limited to wars that are connected to a storyline, although I can see a "If you don't beat Zorbak's undead army by [x], everybody will have to donate gold to rebuild the walls" or something like that being ok for smaller wars that aren't connected to a storyline. Again, while being told that winning gets us nice things is a nice incentive in itself, knowing that losing gets us bad things is a good incentive as well.

5) Variety. Now, I know that this isn't always possible, since you don't always have the time and energy to make big flashy things, but I think there are some things in the database that could be reused from time to time. For example, the bombing run for DAs only was a lot of fun, and non-DAs could do that quest where you have to sneak past the enemies (I don't know the "official name. We had it in the Dragonrider war last time. I think it had something to do with stealing supplies?).
However, personally, foot waves and catapult waves are enough for smaller wars, since I know these other quests have to be "reskinned" to fit in with the war.

6) Wars and other events overlapping. This can be a problem, but I don't think it's a good idea to choose between making a war or an event. I think the issue could easily be solved by making both the war and the event small, which I think you did good with this year's HHD and F13. Again, I think the loss was more due to miscommunication and the smaller playerbase than to the overlapping events.
DF AQW  Post #: 104
2/21/2015 15:01:19   
11eo1
Member
 

 What about a quest like the booby trap one in book 3 sandsea where you have sneak past guards or detectors to sabotage supplies or plant a fake order or something? Or a something like the GEARS shadowscythe computer espionage minigame from mechquest? (though that's probably way more difficult to incorporate) If you're good at them it would be very few battles plus it adds another front to the war

< Message edited by 11eo1 -- 2/21/2015 15:15:50 >
Post #: 105
2/21/2015 15:37:24   
  Stephen Nix
Penguin Lore Keeper (DF)


 Would I be so far off to say that if we did not have the war during the same time we had the HHD event, the results could have been different? Like if the war was this week, do we really think the results would have differed?

I'd like to think so...I guess looking at it that way then more time could've been put into the war as well right. I suppose though in this case with Friday the 13th and HHD nearly on the same day, there was no way to move one or the other unless the two intertwined.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 106
2/22/2015 12:44:02   
  Starflame13
Moderator
quote:

1. No small wars again, ever. They need to be large, have a major impact, and hold a consequence. If they aren't then they are pointless and hold no motivation so they shouldn't be done.
2. Set a deadline for every single one. No "they should finish it by monday" regardless. Tell you when you have to and make losing painful if you don't make it.
3. Always have an intro and outro cutscene. Always have music. Always make it a major storyline event and over the top to get people involved.
4. Make challenges along the way and invest as much art assets as possible so that people have a tangible reason for wanting to war.
5. The consequences need to have merit and depth so if you do lose you feel it for years to come.
6. More than 3 ways to complete a war. 6-10 basic quests.
7. Vary the monsters in the waves.
8. Don't put any wars close together because it's a drain.


So we have two different types of wars in general, from what I've seen. Story-line wars (DragonRider) and holiday wars (Mogloween/Friday XIII/etc).

For a Story line war:
1. These are major wars that will affect the entire outcome of the DF story-line. As such, they should probably be taken more seriously/have more exposition than just dropping in a holiday war.
2. A deadline for these wars should be clearly stated at the beginning of the war, as should the number of war waves.
3. Story-line wise, there should be something fairly valuable at stake if we lose, beyond just missing out on the war reward items.
4. Time should probably be spent introducing the war. So a build up in the story a week before, or an intro cut-scene, or something.
5. Since these are likely to be larger wars, more care should be taken to keep them interesting. This can be anything from music during war waves, to multiple types of war waves (catapults, foot-waves, maze-quests, the dodging mini-game, etc.) to challenges/minor cut-scenes unlocked at major milestones along the war meter (25, 50, 75%)
6. Since they are again likely to be larger wars, make sure they are spaced out accordingly. My guess would be maybe 1-3 a year?

For a Holiday War:
1. These don't necessarily match up with the story, so they can have any number of any type of waves. Long war, short war, only footwaves, unlockable catapults, etc. These should just be something to do for fun and to earn XP and DMs, and to just come together and enjoy being part of such an amazing community without the sense of looming disaster if you lose.
2. If the above format is used, these wars should have either no deadline, or a much longer deadline, at least with serious effects. Deadlines/challenges with war items/pets can still be used.
3. If the war is dragging on too long and needs to be wrapped up, an official win/loss deadline can be announced, but should be announced at least 3 days or so in advance.
4. Again, since these are casual wars, less needs to be done with them. You shouldn't need as much cool/crazy/unique stuff to get people motivated, because people will be warring for fun and for pride and possible for items, not for preventing the destruction/loss of something.
5. Spacing with these wars would be a bit harder to figure out. Even with no deadline, people can get tired out, so I would guess not have any of these wars within a month or so of a major story-line war?

In General:
1. If there's gonna be a deadline, warn us early.
2. Don't have two wars super close together, especially two large serious story ones.

Some of this stuff the staff already does, and some are just suggestions. Hope it helps, and thank you for listening to all of our thoughts!

Edit: One last random thought. Some people don't check the forums, some people don't read the DN's. It'd be awesome if, when we have a war, both the war and the deadline were displayed prominently somewhere everyone would see. Like the log-in screen, for example?

< Message edited by Starflame13 -- 2/22/2015 12:49:16 >

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AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 107
2/22/2015 13:19:26   
Therril Oreb
Legendary AdventureGuide!


 I honestly find it strange that people complain there is a deadline or to be more specific, that there is a deadline that was not announced.

It is rather logical every war has a deadline, I mean how long do you think an army will stand there waiting to be beaten before they rampage across the country?
The mere fact so many complain about the deadline and the consequences (That were not even as severe), aren't we getting a bit spoiled and pampered with previous wars a bit?

I know, Ash is ruthless and because it seemed unexpecting, he did save all of us from the consequences. So this is a good warning to all of us that every war has a deadline and depending on the size, they deadline is short or long.

I like the suggestions written here so i won't repeat them. More time between wars, more meaningful objectives, etc... All good to me.

A few additions of my own:
- Other quests that though longer award more "waves". Say that if you do a quest to take down an officer of the army, you gain 5 waves. It might take way longer than regular waves but it gives variety and at the same time gives more waves.
- Return of the warmonger items! Ravenloss had this interesting "Warmonger" set. I never felt more motivated than during that war simply because I wanted the highest level item of the heap. no upgrading the weapon, you get what you fight for.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 108
2/22/2015 15:18:31   
Arthur Glacier
Member

Therril Oreb's post gave me an idea.

How about making a set of shops in which a player could buy special items - available only during wars - depending on their personal wave counter.
The more waves the player defeats, the higher level items they can buy - just like in Aeris Battlespire.

Is it possible?

EDIT: Forgot to mention.
Items in the shops would be seasonal - available only during wars.

< Message edited by Arthur Glacier -- 2/22/2015 15:20:51 >
DF  Post #: 109
2/22/2015 15:51:58   
Adel
Member

And we can only use Defenders Medals? or do we by with gold?

< Message edited by Adel -- 2/22/2015 15:52:25 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 110
2/22/2015 16:47:15   
DoomTaco
Member

I don't know if this is plausible with the current engine or manpower, but something i've always wanted in a DF war is an endles wave, where you fight enemy after enemy (think the Riftwalker arena, but infinite) untill you lose and for every 5 enemies you defeated (per say) you get a wave, that way we don't waste time with loading screens, walking animations, etc.
AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 111
2/22/2015 17:57:26   
Flamehead 12
Member

back to the old carrot idea. back in the day we farmed for weapon drops within the waves. I believe that would also give an incentive to players. maybe. idk im just throwing it out there

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 112
2/22/2015 18:01:15   
Ash
Member
quote:

I don't know if this is plausible with the current engine or manpower, but something i've always wanted in a DF war is an endles wave, where you fight enemy after enemy (think the Riftwalker arena, but infinite) untill you lose and for every 5 enemies you defeated (per say) you get a wave, that way we don't waste time with loading screens, walking animations, etc.

Infinite fight, yes. Having it count every X battles gives 1 wave, no. The way it's setup is "Beat a quest, finish X wave(s) that is pre-set." That's also handled DB side, not Engine side, in an area that only Rolith or Captain or Zhoom can touch. The most we can do right now is ask Rolith to link quest to complete a wave.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 113
2/22/2015 18:27:45   
Womba
Member

quote:

- Return of the warmonger items! Ravenloss had this interesting "Warmonger" set. I never felt more motivated than during that war simply because I wanted the highest level item of the heap. no upgrading the weapon, you get what you fight for.


This. Just to start. People go nuts over these things. The Ravenloss Warmonger scythe sitting in my inventory is still by far one of my most valuable treasures just to reinforce this point. To be fair though... I don't think "Warmonger" labels should be slapped on everything either. Maybe wars for pretty big side plots and main storyline quests but a definite no-no for holiday wars?
DF AQW  Post #: 114
2/23/2015 0:22:50   
Arthur Glacier
Member

^ Adel, I think the currency would be gold for all of them, except the final shop with the highest level items.
It's still just a concept, so suggestions are welcome.
DF  Post #: 115
2/23/2015 6:20:25   
NagisaXIkari
Member

I mentioned in a past thread about varying waves as the meter climbs.

Like in an undead war, enemies start off as lowly mooks like skeletons, eyeballs, and Doomwoods.

At twenty-five percent or so intervals, those are swapped out for harder enemies and so on to show that the boss is stepping its game up and so should the player.

And the nerf to experience as I mentioned on the first page. Wars are the best thing to happen when it comes to levelling up as it means not having to cut down Voltabolt's experiment for days or go through painfully long quests like the Aika Backguard rewarding quests as those are the only ones that give a respectable amount of experience in the long (and I mean long) run.

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An endless endless symphony. Till all I lost instinctively returns.
DF  Post #: 116
2/23/2015 6:27:51   
The Jop
Member

The war getting harder the more waves you defeat sounds like it would reduce motivation for players.

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AQ DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 117
2/23/2015 6:39:51   
NagisaXIkari
Member

That is a possibility depending on the type of player. Free playets get shafted pretty hard for the most part and depending on the difficult, it could seem that those not waving around the Doom Knight gear may also get shafted, but that would be more of a case of the enemies being damn unbalanced.

If anything, the rising difficulty in enemies and the looming threat of Falconreach being burned to the ground (or something) would motivate people to step their game up.

This may also just be inviting Ash to restate or just quote his speech about how people complained about things being difficult.
DF  Post #: 118
2/23/2015 6:40:17   
Miran
Friendly!


 I wish I could thumbs-up Starflame's post, because I thoroughly agree.

I haven't seen much complaint about the deadline itself, it's just that a bit more warning time between annonucement and end would have given more interested people the chance to see and react to it. The deadline had 3 factors working against the DF community: It was announced just 24h before, set before normal release time and ending at a time of day where a significant amount of the players are in school / at work. I am sure if we had 6 more hours, we would've made it - not because of the extra hours, but because everyone who was prevented from warring by RL would've been able to help. Some people just can't war except on weekends and to shut them out from the final push like this was unfortunate and likely a bit disheartening or disappointing for those players.

I've always thought that wars/deadlines need to be announced off-forums as well so I'm happy to see it addressed and not nixed on account of being too difficult to implement. The login screen or the war meter screen looks like a very good idea. Not everyone visits the forums daily, but everyone who logs into DF for a moment to feed their dragon will go "WHOA, I better come back and help!"

A reprise (not necessarily return, although I wouldn't be averse) of the Warmonger items sound lovely.

I know it's tempting to go all snarky when people ask for the moon, but we're all on the same side here. After all we're not drowning you in opinions because we're spoiled, unpleasable brats who want to drive the DF team up the walls. We care, we want to come back next war, every war, for years to come, and help to keep the playerbase of this awesome game as strong as possible. Getting people into the game, tempt them to buy a DA, hopefully keeping them interested long enough to go DmK is what I do, and wars are still a great way to get really into this community.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 119
2/23/2015 7:33:27   
Evangel
Member

I find myself agreeing with the sentiment that wars should be larger, less frequent, and more involved in the context of the story. Wars should be big events in terms of when they happen. Bigger in terms of how they are structured, like the Final 13th. You have multiple cutscenes, story points in context of the progress vs. deadline, and an assortment of loot to earn and acquire, and not to mention potential consequences if the community doesn't reach deadlines.

But I also don't think that the smaller, "war for the sake of war" wars shouldn't be completely snuffed out either. So I suggest a new type of "war": Skirmish. Whereas the aforementioned larger wars are larger and community-involved, "Skirmishes" are smaller events that depend on the individual. Instead of a community war meter, there is a player war meter. Not reaching the deadline bears no consequence in terms of story, but maybe the player loses out on some sweet loot.

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AQ DF AQW  Post #: 120
2/23/2015 11:16:43   
Rio3678
Member

quote:

I wish I could thumbs-up Starflame's post, because I thoroughly agree.


There are a lot of Posts over the years that I wish I could have given a thumbs up to.

quote:

I honestly find it strange that people complain there is a deadline or to be more specific, that there is a deadline that was not announced.


I think the issue is more rather we would want to know when the deadline was. I mean back in the Ebil Corp war we were warned all across the net that the deadline was in 7 days (although that was an anniversary event and the AE's first all games war) and we were also warned about when the deadline was during the Full Moon War.

Anyway there's something I'd like to bring up. This issue hasn't happened for a while, but I still want to bring it up regardless. I don't think the players should be overmotivated and then have another war the next month. I'm speaking of the Turkducken war which came up in the wake of the Ebil Corp War. It was progressing so slowly. To the point where the staff needed to bribe the players. I remember asking "What's taking so long for us to complete this?" someone replied "We don't have the motivation from the Ebil Corp War."

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DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 121
2/23/2015 14:28:09   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*


 Going with the increased difficulty of later waves in the same war, why not just update it to reduce the number of monsters involved?

Say the first 70% would be standard, 5 fights 10 enemies, but for the last 30%, adding squads of 1-2 monsters with rare wave-like HP counts and special abilities would add interest, even more so for people who want to encounter everything themselves.

The numbers and balance may need to be changed, but it never felt right to me that wars would almost always be x million waves of the exact same group of monsters, instead of having new things.

The Wargoth wars did this, and that was cool.
DF AQW  Post #: 122
2/23/2015 15:43:49   
EST OverLord
Member

the announcements of lets say rewards + and - should actually happen either when its seen a lot of people are doing the war but not nearing ends
and maybe the hp and or damage done by enemy attacks be buffed whit certain monsters not only special waves maybe somekind of a work around to buff activity whit get to x before catapult is destroyed and saying exactly what will be lossed if lose and myabe small boost of stats for both da non and dc versions of rewards if goal is reached
overlapping probably wount be a issue unless some um special release and war collide i think it will all be good if announcing will hit the mark right at the center or very close so that activity get maxed

< Message edited by EST OverLord -- 2/23/2015 16:08:56 >
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 123
3/19/2015 5:38:07   
megakyle777
Member

Okay, so I though it might be a cool idea, since wars are a important part of the DF community, to give feedback on each war with a War Feedback Thread. Which is why this exists. Point out the good, the bad and the both in your opinions here.

The Good:

I like having a individual goal to attain in this war: In this case the doom weapon. Farming for the items I need to make the weapon gives me a PERSONAL goal and stake in this war, which is keeping me entertained more then most wars so because of that. It's all well and good for community war challbnges but if it's PERSONAL for a item or whatever it inspires me to war.

Good war rewards at good intervals

New way of showing the war meter that interests.

Multiple ways of war.

Group heal.

The Bad:

Different item drops in different parts: I have been told that in the Bombing run the items needed for the final doom and destiny items do not drop. While the drops do not need to be of a equal rate, I do believe that all ways of warring should be equal in their drop pools, for better or worse.

The Both:

Losing catapults at 75%. On the one hand, I like this since it mixes the war up. On the other, to have it happen so late in the war can severely halt progress. On the OTHER other, if it happened earlier it would halt progress even worse. On the other other other hand if we regained them it would be good. On the other other other other hand.. let's just say I'm torn on this.

Overall, more good then bad and a very fun war.

< Message edited by megakyle777 -- 3/19/2015 5:41:29 >
DF  Post #: 124
3/19/2015 8:33:28   
Rio3678
Member

Actually the catapults were taken before the 75%

Anyway I actually like this war, and also I gotta say, the Baron taking our catapults, just made me like him even more, as he is the first villain smart enough to do that.

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DF MQ AQW Epic  Post #: 125
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