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12/27/2018 15:35:44   
Hardcastle McCormick

Again, LDK and LC have higher potential damage with crits than EPL, and their damage ramps up lot more over time(especially LC). But EPLís ability to dish out guaranteed crits makes it very powerful in practice. It just lacks defense and range compared to those classes so itís a little less mainstream, but I still find it extremely useful for beating down anything under 100k health. Itís also not *horrible* in a group since it lowers enemy defenses by 20%.

Hmm I havenít tried FB since the change. It seems like that would make the 5th skill even less worthwhile since it makes the auto attack so much more limited. They probably couldíve afforded to cut the auto down to 2.75 without making it melee ranged. If I were to suggest a change it would be to make the haste debuff only -50% so you donít go so far into the negatives and end up with 3s of complete immobility between skills. Even if you were to use the class purely for support itís not quite as impactful as SC or Arach. It has some potential in PvP since mana is a bigger deal there than in PvE, and there are a select few classes that would benefit more than others from the mana gains (like UOK and EW).

Itís also worth noting that personal buffs multiply with enemy defense debuffs, so Iím curious how the +80% crit damage applies when combined with the -100% debuff of arachnomancer, for example. Crit damage buffs are kind of misleading since they actually affect the crit multiplier percentage, and not the direct crit damage.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/27/2018 18:00:36 >
AQW  Post #: 51
12/27/2018 23:37:19   
you stop


not quite as impactful as SC or Arach

This, my friend, is where you are wrong. SC by itself is god tier, no arguments there. Arachnomancer by itself is nothing.

This class is self sustaining so apart from SC's 3 rep factions, this should be the easiest self sustaining support to obtain. It provides similar damage to SC and gives so much more mana sustain which leads to things like Cryomancer becoming an absolute monster.

If paired with SC, anything with 20-30% crit will have 100% crit assuming spiral carve for the 20% classes. While arachno guarantees 100% damage increase, this class guarantees crits and an increase of crit damage.
AQW  Post #: 52
12/28/2018 0:51:30   
Hardcastle McCormick

I mean I certainly wouldnít call Arach ďnothingĒ by itself. Youíre correct that this class is more sustainable and its buffs donít have ďdowntimeĒ. Itís just that it does such a small fraction of Arachís DPS that its numerical advantages donít feel that great unless youíre dealing with specific mana starved classes. Arach still has great synergy with SC, and is far better for boosting established classes like VHL that donít need any help with mana - even by itself. But I get where youíre coming from, as itís certainly more flexible and allows for combos that didnít exist before.

Based on my first test the class seems to boost crit damage by around 34% at full stacks(at least in the case of Leprechaun, probably varies from class to class). I know crit boosts affect the base crit modifier of the class, but it doesnít seem to be as simple as adding 0.8 to the apparent crit ratio of any given class. Either way itís certainly not a flat 80% damage boost, but the 34% becomes a lot more powerful when it multiplies with defense debuffs like arachnomancer and glacial berserker.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/28/2018 1:28:55 >
AQW  Post #: 53
12/28/2018 10:20:15   
you stop

Youre not getting the main point. You want this class not just for mana sustain but for the extra crit chance it gives. Crit boost just kinda serves as a bonus since we all know how the maths go from there. Crit chance, not damage boost. I'd like you to read the last line from my previous post.

This, and I still think that Arachnomancer by itself is nothing. It does not have mana sustain for itself, let alone keeping itself alive. Having a temporary boost then running out of mana later on is really not something you want for a support.
AQW  Post #: 54
12/28/2018 13:03:18   
Hardcastle McCormick

If a crit boost alone is as amazing as you say, Archfiend should be a superior class (and it would be if the 5 skill didnít have so much downtime...) The main thing that makes SC great is that it boosts crit chance AND haste AND damage all by hefty amounts. +100% damage for 12 seconds with around 8 seconds of downtime is so far from being nothing itís baffling to me that you would call it so. Plus you really donít have to run out of mana unless youíre using the 1st and 3rd skills which are unecessary most of the time. So no, you havenít changed my mind, and my reading comprehension is just fine.

At this point Iíll concede that Arach is worse than FB if you take defense into account, but to call it ďnothingĒ is asinine.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/28/2018 13:14:39 >
AQW  Post #: 55
12/28/2018 17:11:39   
Edme MacHeath

I'm late but I want more clarification on something.


EPL May have lower long-term DPS than LDK, but in shorter fights it easily beats LDK and even LC. Itís basically my goto single target class until I get VHL...

What specific examples do you have and what exactly defines short fights? Throwing out a vague claim with little backing is abit meaningless.

Okay so people wanted some benchmarks on how much faster Blazebinder is than FB, and it's definitely faster by a bit. I'm gonna use Fighter for FB and Wizard for Blazebinder

I'm counting the first 4 rooms of ToD4. Using a 50% boost but I can try switching to 30%. No Awe, but i'm almost certain BB is gonna get more from awe due to being able to crit.

Blazebinder: :40, :41, :42, :42, :39

FB 1:10, :50(died though so it doesn't count), :50(died 2nd room), 1:09, 1:02

FB dies too much to finish out but even room by room it's speed is still largely slower, i had situations where i died in the 2nd room and had like 40-50 seconds already. I tried not managing HP at all and just going for speed and seeing how long I lasted out, but i'm still much much slower than Blazebinder room per room.

I decided to go to towerofdoom3, because FB doesn't die in that floor. Same procedure, 4 rooms, 50% boost.

FB, 40, 43, 42, :45, :46

BB, :35, :33, :34, :30

I think this was closer by quite a bit, but not because the difficulty was significantly lower, but because the mobs all died to like a few hits plus BB or FB's nukes. So their hp was just so low that they just died by the time you nuked them with either class. Both classes nuke over 3k easily. and the damage from their skills added to the nuke is enough to finish them off, usually, because sometimes they lived until a few hits after or until a second nuke, which occurred with both classes but with FB abit more often. but i'm convinced this room was a poor choice because of the enemy HP, but nonetheless FB is still slower. I guess this class is alright for mobs around 5k HP, not really top tier but alright.

I think FB is somewhere around midtier abit higher in terms of DPS, but it can't heal to maintain that DPS. So if that's "viable" I guess? I mean it's just so annoying to use though, it can't heal, the haste makes maintaining any of the skills feel slugglish because even though they appear refreshed, somehow when you try to click on them, they still say they're not ready to use and you get that red message in the chat bar. So that alone messes up any chance of optimizing the runs perfectly, because you literally can't know whether a skill is ready for sure unless you keep a entire mental time tracking with mental accuracy for each cooldown.

I think it's bad. Pretty bad, the dps is alright, but it's so bad to use, i'd say it feels way worse to use than the DPS shows. It's decent on a technical level, but on a practical level i'd advise avoiding it as a farming class unless you simply don't have anything better. Essential it's kinda like a necromancer or SS of farming, easy to obtain, decent but just not worth long term use.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 12/28/2018 17:13:56 >
AQ  Post #: 56
12/28/2018 17:12:05   

So I'll give my opinion on this Arach or FB.

It's very obvious Arach does more damage than FB. But even then I don't think it's like a massive advantage over it from this comparison alone. Since Arach has also mana issues of its own, and having to reserve mana for toxic adrenaline and/or forboding, and a few casts of slingshot web to do some damage on its own before having to fall back and regain mana via auto attacks.

So for me I don't think "Nothing" is the best way to describe it but more or less it's kind of one dimensional in that regard, whereas with SC it has no mana issues and provides really good damage on top of providing support.

And speaking of just duo support synergies alone, I think Arach + FB is something worth mentioning as well. The upside of the former is that Arach can freely spend more mana on slingshot web and its other skills. Also FB just so happens to increase crit damage + combine that with a toxic adrenaline, Arach's auto crit skill is gonna be doing some decent damage on top of it being cheaper to use as well, and overall enabling Arach to be more of an offensive damage threat on top of providing toxic adrenaline support.

Not too much to say about SC + Arach, its self explanatory in what you'd expect, haste, heals, crit, some mana support, etc and a toxic adrenaline to tie that all together.

Either way, whatever happens and for the sake of not over complicating things further just run the whole trio support (SC, Arach and FB) and call it a day and add any other classes and they'll probably or most likely wreck shop anyways.
Post #: 57
12/28/2018 17:19:50   
Edme MacHeath

Aracnomancer is potentially a better offensive support. But i'd actually argue that FB is actually not an offensive support at all and simply appears to be one.

Yes added crit chance and crit damage are offensive, but the majority of the way FB works seems rather defensive, reducing haste, lowering mana costs, healing, reducing damage, etc.

I think it's a mid-offensive or mid-defensive support and not a fully defensive support like Archpaladin or a fully offensive like aracnomancer or StoneCrusher.

If that's even a thing, but that's kinda how I feel FB is. It's not actually too insane offensively, atleast by itself, I think it's more utility/defensive and has the potential to be offensive rather than actually being offensive, especially in combination with other specific classes like Aracno+FB or SC+FB or FB+ Mana heavy classes.

But honestly once you have one or two good supports anyways, your gonna be killing most bosses so fast that I'm not sure that you need to be as optimal as possible with your lineup.
AQ  Post #: 58
12/28/2018 20:11:48   
Hardcastle McCormick

@edme macheath
I felt the same way, which is why I attempted to clarify:

Again, LDK and LC have higher potential damage with crits than EPL, and their damage ramps up lot more over time(especially LC). But EPLís ability to dish out guaranteed crits makes it very powerful in practice. It just lacks defense and range compared to those classes so itís a little less mainstream, but I still find it extremely useful for beating down anything under 100k health. Itís also not *horrible* in a group since it lowers enemy defenses by 20%.

To be specific, Iím farming for VHL, so basically anything you fight for that quest along with the black knight orb bosses fall under ďshort fightsĒ for me. The difference isnít huge and if you happen to get loads of crits, LDK and LC are easily stronger. But considering most areas of the game involve lower level bosses, I find EPL a pretty safe goto for solo DPS, even if its damage ceiling is a lot lower than LDK and LC. The main point is that LC and LDK always have the possibility of "noncrit streaks" that can cause their DPS to dip below EPL's constant stream of crits, which is a minor downside considering how much better they are for group damage support and soloing harder hitting bosses.

If you want data:
I tried testing this against Undead Artix, a boss with 100k hp and not very threatening damage , using burning blade and spiral carve (just for speed, I know this randomizes the results a bit more, but if anything EPL benefits less from it than the others...)
LDK took 33 seconds on my best run, and 40+ on the less fortunate attempts
LC took 27 seconds on my best run, and up to 38 on the less fortunate attempts
GB took 37 seconds on my best run, and 40+ on the less fortunate attempts
EPL basically always placed around 35 seconds, no matter what

Again, this is a super MINOR issue considering LDK and LC are both far far better defensively than EPL, and have ranged attacks making them more versatile, and I basically completely agree with You Stop's DPS tier list.
I just wanted to explain why I don't just leave EPL in my bank all the time, even though I have LDK and LC, which have higher DPS under ideal circumstances.


While I agree that FB is only partly offensive, I wouldnít say the ability to cut mana costs is defensive at all, as it enables damage abilities in a way that can dramatically increase damage output for some classes, while making basically no difference for others...

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/28/2018 21:18:57 >
AQW  Post #: 59
12/28/2018 22:06:03   
Dante Redorigin

Well that change to FB's melee range didn't do it any favors :/ I'm not getting their logic with this, even the other support classes like Oracle and Bard can hold their own even when focusing on party support. I don't think we need it to match StoneCrusher or anything by any means, but not letting it have crit damage along with how slow it gets when Enraged, the poor range on top of it now just makes it feel way too reliant on having a party around it to get any real damage done.

< Message edited by Dante Redorigin -- 12/31/2018 2:16:29 >
Post #: 60
12/29/2018 0:20:12   
Edme MacHeath

Let it crit or remove the haste loss from enrage entirely. One of those. Then make it single target. Class would be fine if all that happened.

Single target prevents another SS situation. Being able to crit but still suffering from enrage seems fine to me, wouldn't even come close to being as much of a problem as SS or as good as SC. or being able to keep it's haste during enrage.

It's already seasonal and while easy to obtain, it's seasonal. Hardly a problematic thing to revise it abit more.

This is already a solid support that isn't gamebreaking, the least they could do is give it actual functionality so it works in a way that makes sense.

AQ  Post #: 61
12/29/2018 0:31:06   
you stop


spiral carve (just for speed)
tbh HP Vamp is faster for EPL. The small down time of not having to use 5 and/or the DoT part of it due to you focusing on HP regen hurts your DPS by a fair amount. Hence I tried HP Vamp, which produced much better results.

If I remember correctly, I had about 1.8k-1.9k DPS with Spiral Carve and 2-2.1k with HP vamp. It's not a huge jump but think of it this way: LC without Awe Enh is capped at 4k DPS, and it goes up to 4.2k with Spiral Carve. It does matter.

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/29/2018 0:34:15 >
AQW  Post #: 62
12/29/2018 0:50:47   
Hardcastle McCormick

^Or you could just... not fight bosses that do enough damage to offset the healing? HP vamp is good for this class regardless since it doesn't badly need extra crit chance and doesn't have nearly enough healing to actually survive the tougher bosses. But for the purposes of my test against Undead Artix - or ANY of the low level bosses I've been using the class for - Spiral Carve was in no way slower.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/29/2018 0:51:32 >
AQW  Post #: 63
12/29/2018 1:24:24   

Well, it was suggested in another thread to use Ninja against Warlord, and I decided to test it, all I have to say is... butter my butt and call me a biscuit, it actually works!

Because this was a proof of concept, I used bare minimum, only Ninja(well, Assassin in this case, cuz I might as well ready myself for the Holy Grail War), StoneCrusher and Frostval Berserker, SC max out Assassin's haste, FB takes care of any mana issues, the only problem found here was that there is a brief period between Shadowblade fading out and being able to recast... which was easily solved by Shadowburn, a very reliable 3 second stun that I just had to time correctly to use it when Shadowblade was about to run out, Shadowburn consistently allowed me to bridge Shadowblade castings without issues.

Mind, this is the new, nerfed version of Warlord, which is still a very tough boss that hits for 19k, so there is no reason this wouldn't have worked against the unnerfed version.
AQW  Post #: 64
12/29/2018 3:15:17   
you stop

HP Vamp's purpose is not because bosses do a lot of damage. You already reduce the damage they do apart from your own damage resistance. The point is that no matter what base enh you use, your HoT will always be less than the cost of 5. HP vamp allows for another way around that. You cannot possibly spam 5 every time it goes off cooldown, at least not without HP Vamp. Being able to use 5 as soon as it is up allows the HP Vamp set up to be superior than Spiral Carve.

I've done my tests with that tierlist and I wouldnt bother including EPL if it wasnt for HP Vamp. It's DPS will be way below GB and SC without the said enh even if we add Spiral Carve to EPL and remove all Awe Enh on GB/SC.

Again, I hit 1.8k DPS with Spiral Carve, 2k minimum with HP Vamp. At 1.8k DPS, if you still think that HP Vamp is not necessary then I should probably include anything with 1.8k DPS. Necromancer, Chaos Slayer, nearly every other single rep classes that can solo pretty well sits at 1.8k DPS mark.

Besides, I heavily question your tests. GB sits at 2.3k DPS with Spiral Carve so I dont know where you went wrong and made GB have a slower clear speed than EPL.

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/29/2018 3:22:42 >
AQW  Post #: 65
12/29/2018 8:54:36   

Hi when is monster hunter class going to be released or was it cancelled? Hope it involves other factions rank 10 that do not have a class linked to it, and it gonna be good it's a play to win class
Post #: 66
12/29/2018 8:58:27   
Paulus Xiphos


What is the general objective assessment of Frostval Barbarian exactly? I just got the class... it's incapable of crit damage so I use Full Fighter with it, it feels kinda slow-going, I'm not sure if it stands as a good farmer, and I don't understand the whole negative Haste thing too...

I never got to experience the ranged AA bit, as I got it too late due to Crypto Tokens.

@Above Monster Hunter class, forgotten long ago haha... I haven't heard any update in a while.

< Message edited by Paulus Xiphos -- 12/29/2018 9:00:17 >
AQW  Post #: 67
12/29/2018 9:49:11   
you stop

A very solid Support class. It couldve been an okay farming class but not top tier. As of now, it's practically reduced to that one class that gives unlimited orange numbers and unlimited mana.

It's not a replacement to SC nor Arachnomancer but it doesnt mean that it's inferior to any of those. They all stand out in their certain niches with SC being the most versatile and the main support you mostly want to go with. Using all 3 of them practically ensures all bosses except those meant to kill you will die in seconds.
AQW  Post #: 68
12/29/2018 12:17:52   

Monster Hunter came out in early 2018

In all seriousness, though, the class is kind of in limbo. Plans have to change as new stuff comes up, which can affect other plans, like classes being released. Can't really say much more than that, though.
AQ AQW  Post #: 69
12/29/2018 19:53:43   
you stop

Im under the assumption that the class design is done but now youre just looking for when to release it? They did say the class's design requires the rewrite so Im assuming the design is done but the game cannot handle it as of yet.
AQW  Post #: 70
12/31/2018 1:10:29   

That... is one I don't think I can give you the answer for. Though you can use Master of Moglins
AQ AQW  Post #: 71
12/31/2018 2:06:01   

Icewing Warlord can be soloed using Chrono Assassin. At lvl 90, full luck gives CA around 84% dodge rate, couple that with the ability to reduce enemiesí hit chance and crit chance by 30%, one can really chew through Warlordís HP rather quickly. Since this boss is human-tagged, NSOD and SDKA can help greatly. Just remember to stack your Dodge and Crit buff with the regular mobs before fighting the boss, and you are set to go.
Post #: 72
12/31/2018 4:16:33   
Hardcastle McCormick

@you stop
If youíre fighting something with enough health or damage that you run out of hp to use 5, then youíre already gonna lose to LDK and LC just from their stacking damage and healing. But again, Iím specifically using EPL for shorter fights and average releases where thereís not a whole lot of opposition, so HP vamp isnít completely necessary all the time.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/31/2018 4:31:43 >
AQW  Post #: 73
12/31/2018 5:37:25   
you stop


damage that you run out of hp to use 5

Youre not reading my post at all. I said I dont use HP vamp for sustain. I use it due to the fact that the HoT is never enough for you to spam 5 regardless of how much damage/hp the boss has and regardless of what enhancements you use. If you still cannot comprehend that, do tell me how much each tick of HoT you receive as opposed to the cost of your 5. You always hit max haste with EPL so 5 is on a 2s cd while HoT ticks every 2s. You will get a net loss of HP no matter what you do except if you use HP Vamp.

Doesnt matter that monsters do 0 damage to you. You will eventually kill yourself with the HP cost of 5 even if youre fighting 10k hp mobs or even 1k hp mobs. HP vamp solves that.

That and I have tests in my old hard drive that died out. I cannot show you yet due to my laptop being dead which contains that hard drive. HP Vamp shows 2k DPS over any period of time (long or short fights) while Spiral Carve shows 1.8k. Regardless of what you say, the data is clear: HP Vamp is superior.

And I dont know why youre comparing this class with LDK when clearly that is a given regardless of if you use HP Vamp or even PWD. EPL will do more damage in short like 10k short fights. The argument here is how to maximize EPL and in this case, use HP Vamp.

Then we tackle the issue of necessity. HP Vamp is not necessary, youre right. But so ia using EPL. I could very much finish a release just by using Healer but why make myself suffer Healer's clear speed when better options exist? Why suffer with any less of enhancements when HP Vamp EPL exists?

< Message edited by you stop -- 12/31/2018 5:41:46 >
AQW  Post #: 74
12/31/2018 23:46:07   
Hardcastle McCormick

We seem to be at odds over the definitions of the terms sustain and DPS. Iím curious what exactly do those words mean for you?

Iíve been saying I use EPL in situations where SUSTAIN (aka the ability to not have a net loss of HP or MP) doesnít matter. You say youíre talking about something other than sustain, but then proceeded to define the word sustain in the context of AQW pretty much perfectly as I understand it. You also seem to be saying MP vamp increases DPS over any period of time? So... if I press 5 to 1-shot a monster with 1000 health in a fraction of a second, MP vamp will make me kill that thing in a smaller fraction of a second? Thatís exactly what youíre saying if we use the actual definition of the phrase ďdamage per second,Ē so Iím not even sure how to respond to that.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 12/31/2018 23:53:04 >
AQW  Post #: 75
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