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RE: =DF= January 3rd Design Notes: Corrupted Seven: Pride

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1/6/2020 12:03:29   
TFS
Helpful!


 Just to clarify, I don't really mind the grinding as much as I do the low difficulty that's there to justify the grinding. Like Callum and shrike said it's much more fun to have to learn the mechanics of a tough boss in order to beat it, rather than just outmuscling an easy boss and then learning its mechanics (for documentation, not strategizing) later.

I also wouldn't say that the individual monsters are badly designed fights (quite the opposite actually), there have been lots of really cool and complex bosses like Gluttony and the Warden! It's the combination of the 1v1 format and in many cases just all-around low numbers for easiness's sake (Greed getting like 5ish BtH per buff is probably the most egregious example. Like, why even do anything at all at that point?) that really smothers any difficulty that could arise from the monsters' complexity, kind of like the original Unraveler. There are lots of really cool mechanics going on in the background for many of these fights that you aren't going to appreciate when you can just go in and blitz them so easily. Like, most people aren't even going to notice that each time you hit Sloth it wakes up a little bit more and the heal threshold goes down. Or that if you feed Gluttony enough he'll stop eating your MP. It's the fact that all of this cool stuff doesn't get its chance to shine that leaves me feeling kind of disappointed. It's evident that lot of thought went into conceptualizing and designing these challenges but was squandered by how easily they go down. These fights are really cool and they deserve better!

< Message edited by TFS -- 1/6/2020 12:04:46 >
DF  Post #: 26
1/6/2020 12:16:13   
shrike
Member

I think it would be fine for Chaosweaver to eat a nerf, because I do agree that it's the flat out best option in situations that favour offensive classes. However, I think there's an issue that these situations are the norm now, where you want to farm the same easy boss 5 times. Even if Chaosweaver is nerfed and no longer the best offensive option, I wouldn't want to see as many challenges in the same vein as Challenger Gauntlet. Sure, you can technically do it with Technomancer or Doomknight, but nerfing Chaosweaver wouldn't make defensive classes more viable for the huge amount of offensive-rewarding challenges. It would only make the pool of usable farming classes smaller, if anything.

Ultimately, my biggest gripe is that there should be more variety. If we had more challenges in the vein of Weird Duo, Primordials, and Ancient Duo, would Chaosweaver still be overwhelmingly dominant in every single recent challenge? Probably not. Chaosweaver can manage through hard duos and trios and beat them, but it wouldn't always be the best option, and more defensive classes would have a chance to shine more often. The current issue seems to be that people consider Chaosweaver to be the overwhelmingly best class in every challenge, but that's only true for more recent challenges in the past year. It doesn't just shove classes out of the meta because it's powerful, but because in many cases, there's no other realistic option for farming. I really don't want to see it be pushed completely out of viability in the inn, I just think more playstyles in general should be represented in new releases.
DF  Post #: 27
1/6/2020 13:12:28   
Vikken101
Member

@TFS agreed, having these interesting mechnics shine in more difficult challenges, is the hope. Also agree that lowering the challenge for the sake of a grind, is not ideal. Which is why i would have prefered some Exaltia Levels, run throughs to be halfed in extanged for more of a challenge.
Post #: 28
1/6/2020 15:06:50   
ballistik
Member

Just thought I’d share my opinion, since I’ve explored the ChaosWeaver class a lot. One of the reasons I created my channel of CW beating all inn challenges (apart from Marthe asking me) was to show how good this class was for some challenges, while still being able to do the rest without any cheese or even food. Is it very strong for single challenges? Yes. For duos / trios? Not really. It is strong for some of the easy duos. But it is definitely not the best option for fights like Ancient Duo, Egomaniacs and Weird Duo. If you exclude Exaltia, C7 and the first challenger gauntlet, it is definitely not the best class for the inn. You also need the absolute best end game gear to be able to do the harder fights.

Right now, if we just nerf it, so that it’s no longer as good for single target fights, we’ll also make it unviable for duos / trios. The whole reason ChaosWeaver can do multiple target fights is because it can burst one of the targets quickly. I believe that if recently we had more challenging Duo fights, we won’t be having this discussion for ChaosWeaver.

I also think that there can be single target challenges that can be designed in a way to be hard for ChaosWeaver too. Give them mechanics that discourage bursting (like if you do more than X amount of dmg, you get automatically stunned or something). A lot of the recent single fights have been a ticking time bomb (Engineer, Pride, Gauntlet, Wrath, Lust) where you have to kill them quickly, otherwise you’re screwed. They also require farming which makes killing them fast even more favourable. That's why ChaosWeaver is so good for them. If I have to be honest, I don’t get why we have so much farming recently. Doing a hard fight once is a challenge, doing an easier one 5 times isn’t.

That being said, I still really appreciate the recent variety of mechanics and like the others pointed out, it will be good to see them in harder challenges. I also understand it can be hard to balance single target fights around CW. I don’t mind changing the class, however if we do, I don’t think it should be just a straight nerf, because that way some other class will become the new meta for single target.

So, I think there needs to be a discussion on what we want for the ChaosWeaver class. I personally really like having a fast-paced, high risk / high reward class. It might be good to consider tweaks that reduce the single target burst potential of the class, while slightly improving its defense options. That way, it will be less overpowered for single target fights, while not losing its viability for duos / trios. An example change is making empowered shred not automatically stun, but instead give -bonus for more turns.
DF  Post #: 29
1/6/2020 16:23:47   
dragon_master
Member

I do not think classes should be changed around the Inn. CW in particular. Just lock it from challenges, along with DmK, along other classes with broken gimmicks. Old challenges have also aged pretty badly and are practically a piece of cake for anything that received revamps in the past 1.5 years, so those should be updated, at least the Ultimate Destiny.

Tbh, the overall quality of the Inn has dropped. Please, scrap the current ideas and develop something new. As everyone already pointed out the "easy fights multiple times(TM)".
DF  Post #: 30
1/6/2020 16:55:17   
Vikken101
Member

@dragon_master Why Ban a class thats not V1? CW still struggles against duo fighs where its attack cannon burst down the enemies, and you would rather use a more defensive class. And dmk is not broken baring Void Barrier, which requires setup to and the majority of players dont do. Verly had to change vb and all refect damage attack, so you cant die from them anymore and instead goes down to 1hp to fix a bug rescently, and he stated he was not doing it we cant do vb shennanigens anymore, so hes clearly fine with it. In addition, CW is literally designed around end game content, banning it from the Inn would make it so it literally has no use case since it can auto win all other fights in the game. And there was even hesitation around v1, so v2 is not gonna get banned .So yeah, i'm on the opposite side, change it based on the inn, if there is a reasonable systemic reason for it. Also what do you mean by "Scrap current ideas and do something new", the fights that have been coming out rescently has new and unique mechnics, the issue is around having them on weaker fights.

While CW could use a nerf, its the systemic issue of weaker fights that is the problem. When this has changed and we are back to "normal" challenge fights, CW will continue struggle against duo fights. And maybe even single once, now when we know what its issues are.

< Message edited by Vikken101 -- 1/6/2020 18:01:53 >
Post #: 31
1/6/2020 21:14:05   
  Verlyrus
DragonFable Boxcat


 As always, I appreciate all of the feedback!
AQ MQ  Post #: 32
1/7/2020 1:46:05   
The_element
Member

I don't think ChW is problematic right now, it's just really good against recent inn bosses where it's either a 1v1 challenge, has really low hp or the boss takes time to set up. I don't think chaosweaver would be nearly as effective in the duos in comparison to some of the recent challenges. Maybe if it does get a nerf, gambit could have -100 All instead of -60 All resist?

I think with a lot of the challenges, defensive classes like Cryptic, Paladin, Necromancer, Patience Dragonlord, Ancient Exosuit and Ninja are penalised for being too slow in 2 main ways; first if the boss has a heal and secondly if the boss can stack effects over time. With a heal the fights often get extended significantly and when the bosses can stack effects (such as Pride), longer fights mean an exponentially more difficult battle towards the end, which disincentives defensive classes and often favours offensive classes. I think if you want to give more of an incentive to the defensive classes, you need to add a reason for them to use their defence, for example, you can have inn fights where the bosses have strong debuffs on the player that need to be evaded e.g. -75 bth for 4 turns, -100 m/p/m def for 4 turns, -100 crit for 5 turns, -50 All for 4 turns, -50 boost for 4 turns, 3 turn stun, etc.

Also, you could probably add a 'Sloth' mechanic, where if you do too much damage, then the inn boss gets some kind of buff like +boost(?) and +bth(?). Overall I've enjoyed all the inn releases thus far, but would prefer if there is less RNG involved in certain fights like the Pride Challenge, as it makes the overall experience less enjoyable and more frustrating.
Post #: 33
1/8/2020 17:48:33   
  Gingkage
Wolf Rider


 I have deleted several posts that were argumentative in nature. Disagreeing with others is fine. Respectfully stating your opinions is fine. Name-calling and belittling others is not and will never be accepted. I strongly recommend everyone take a deep breath and consider what they're saying before they say it. If your post has been deleted, consider this as the deletion notice.

~Gingkage
DragonFable General Discussion Head Moderator



I will say this one more time, and only one more time. Enough.

I asked you to post respectfully, and you refused. Resorting to finger-pointing and more belittling and name-calling. You knew that was what you were doing, as you even commented about it, further driving the thread off-topic. This is unacceptable behavior.

I will not ask again. If you cannot respond a post in a respectful manner, do not respond to that post.

If there are any more posts like what were deleted last night and just now, the poster will be given an Official Warning.

Follow the rules.

~Gingakge
DragonFable General Discussion Head Moderator

< Message edited by Gingkage -- 1/8/2020 17:48:33 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 34
1/9/2020 5:55:42   
Raphael 777
Member

Finally got chibi pride. Pride's random buffs were annoying, you have to adjust depending on what she gets and her superiority level like some crazy version of chess (which I'm terrible at). I'm really excited for what's in the box.
AQ DF MQ AQW  Post #: 35
1/10/2020 19:44:01   
Beleg Strongbow
Member

On the topic of using Chaosweaver Armor (CWA) for particularly challenging fights, like those found within The Inn at the Edge of Time, is there already a strategy thread for Egomaniacs? I did a search but wasn't able to find one. If CWA is generally a poor choice against multiple powerful foes, is DoomKnight Armor a good option, particularly for Egomaniacs?

Also, continuing on the topic of CWA, I am more than a little disappointed that Chaosweavers are unable to invite Aegis as a Guest. After all, a Chaosweaver is an extended form of a Soulweaver, right?

_____________________________

(=- { BELEG STRONGBOW } -=)

-=- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13) -=-
DF  Post #: 36
1/10/2020 20:33:50   
Kurtz96
Member

quote:

On the topic of using Chaosweaver Armor (CWA) for particularly challenging fights, like those found within The Inn at the Edge of Time, is there already a strategy thread for Egomaniacs? I did a search but wasn't able to find one. If CWA is generally a poor choice against multiple powerful foes, is DoomKnight Armor a good option, particularly for Egomaniacs?

The battle strategy thread should have a few entries on egomaniacs. I think the void barrier strategy also works. You could also search for the release thread of egomaniacs since we usually discuss how to beat each challenge there. People also stacked fire resist.
The top of page 8 has a strategy.

quote:

Also, continuing on the topic of CWA, I am more than a little disappointed that Chaosweavers are unable to invite Aegis as a Guest. After all, a Chaosweaver is an extended form of a Soulweaver, right?

Chaosweavers are corrupted soulweavers and thus would corrupt Aegis if we called him. Being a chaosweaver cannot coexist with our character's being inherently good which is why it is a DC class (non-canon).

< Message edited by Kurtz96 -- 1/10/2020 20:35:23 >
AQ DF MQ  Post #: 37
1/11/2020 4:14:50   
Lord Alsvinich
Member

Please don't nerf Chaos Weaver, some of us are excited to finally feel like we stand a chance with the inn challenges, unlike before when they seemed impossible.
Post #: 38
1/11/2020 6:12:39   
ProbablyCallum
Member

quote:

Please don't nerf Chaos Weaver, some of us are excited to finally feel like we stand a chance with the inn challenges, unlike before when they seemed impossible.


Literally just put in some effort and strategy, all the inn challenges are beatable without DC stuff. Dont run into lategame superbosses that require strategy and equipment and planning with no thought to any of those. They're Challenge fights, not pushover fights.

Level 90
Soulforged scythe ice with shown ice scythe and optional level 10 lucky hammer for showing on nuke turns
Balt Aventail wis/end version
Legion Bracer
Ribbon of Compromise
Not so tiny bubbles
Grub necklace
Legion Cloak with optional chaosweaver cloak for equipping during nuke turns.
Unhallowed Deathknight Ring and Soulforged Ring Blue for equipping during nuke turns
Baby Dragon (ideally with 200 assist, 199 prot, 200 mischief and 1 fighting but less than that can do just fine as long as the build is in that general direction)
Soulweaver (not master soulweaver)

200 dex 200 int and 45 end
Seaweed/hardtack and extra potions

There you go you've now got a decently tanky settup that can do a lot of damage, requires no inn progression except for nekoparagon and has no excuse for losing to most challenges under the assumption you actually learn the mechanics for each fight, you could even bring along guests or use VIK/Hamsters with another class if you really want to have an easy time of it. There is just no excuse at all in any shape or form for not being able to do the inn fights other than laziness and if they're "not for you" (read: you dont want to put in any effort) then you certainly shouldnt be asking for something that is making every non duo challenge a joke including exraveler as well as being a problem in the design for all future challenge fights to not be nerfed. It almost feels like you deliberately ignored everything that was discussed in this thread other than "chaosweaver might get some pokes"

< Message edited by Cronomancer Callum -- 1/11/2020 10:31:57 >
DF  Post #: 39
1/11/2020 23:52:42   
Lord Alsvinich
Member

I'm not level 90, and although I admit I don't know much about geting a perfect build, I don't think mine is too bad, I am only now able to enjoy the challenges as I am still not very strong and trying to find the right build to beat a boss is very difficult because most of the guides are for max level players and yes while I will get there eventually I am not and until recently I have not had time to grind for good gear.

I have a foreign concept for you. If you don't like how easy being a chaos weaver makes the challenges don't use it.
Post #: 40
1/12/2020 0:52:40   
TFS
Helpful!


 ^I'd recommend getting to the level cap if you find intentionally challenging content designed for high-level characters to be difficult. Inn challenges are kind of, y'know, supposed to be challenging endgame content and are balanced as such. The fact that your character is low level and you've claimed you don't have good gear, yet can easily do Inn challenges with Chaosweaver is... not a good argument against nerfing it.
DF  Post #: 41
1/12/2020 13:29:03   
GearzHeadz
Member

I've already beaten Pride a few times now but the fight is just so RNG heavy. I've had to suicide or refresh the page several times because this fight really feels like just having random circumstances line up right. I'd describe it as waiting for a broken clock to be the right time.
DF AQW Epic  Post #: 42
1/15/2020 19:34:02   
Beleg Strongbow
Member

@Cronomancer Callum,

quote:

Seaweed/hardtack and extra potions...

...use VIK/Hamsters with another class if you really want to have an easy time of it

What is meant by "extra potions"? Is there a way to carry more than four (two Health and two Manna) potions? Also, what are "VIK/Hamsters"?

< Message edited by Beleg Strongbow -- 1/15/2020 22:04:39 >
DF  Post #: 43
1/15/2020 22:54:13   
ProbablyCallum
Member

There is and there are several methods in going about doing so.
Plunder and Sunder on both Pirate and Dread Pirate
The Treasure! quest on the pale sea.
The Cloak Scrap artifact obtained from a quest from book 3 Ash in his letters section.
The Potion Stall in The Forum
And last but not least you can gain health and mana potions from many of the negative exaltia tower choices. Going in and out of the first room of them is a way to farm potions if you're not willing to part with 5000 gold in The Forum. All of these methods of increasing your potions cap out at 5 each and the last two I mentioned are the most time efficient.

As for VIK and Hamsters, VIK stands for Vanilla Ice Katana and can be obtained as a really really rare drop from the Final Battle quest in the fire war. It has a 5% chance attack button special when shown or equipped and it will apply -100 ice for 50 turns to the enemy, essentially doubling your damage for the rest of the battle if you proc it. Hamsters are Cysero's hamster weapons from his clashening DC shop and also have a 5% chance attack button special when shown or equipped, thier one applies -100 ??? for 50 turns instead, doubling your damage if you're using a void weapon. Both of these specials are really grossly overpowered and really deserve to be nerfed but if you really want to make use of them to trivialise Inn fights nothing is stopping you but your own conscience.

Also this is a bit late but you can use Aegis with any class. You just have to invite Aegis as a soulweaver and then swap to a different class at thier trainer or with an armour in your inv or from armour closet.

< Message edited by Cronomancer Callum -- 1/16/2020 2:29:33 >
DF  Post #: 44
1/16/2020 4:50:19   
aceflashwater
Member

I wish there willbe another war i am so addicted to war please DF team give me more war in my life hahaha i really miss the war
Post #: 45
1/18/2020 16:16:25   
Beleg Strongbow
Member

@Cronomancer Callum,

Thanks for the additional info and clarifications, however your latest response has prompted yet another question.

quote:

...a 5% chance attack button special when shown or equipped...

What can you share about the significance of showing a piece of equipment versus equipping it? I have always assumed it was purely cosmetic, i.e. my character's performance is based only upon equipped items, while his appearance is affected only by shown items. Is there more to it? Is performance based upon equipped and shown, meaning my character can actually benefit from two weapons at one time, i.e. the weapon equipped and the weapon shown?
DF  Post #: 46
1/18/2020 17:42:38   
Dratomos
Helpful!


 @Beleg Strongbow, yes, if your weapon has weapon-special for example "10% chance to give you 5% boost", it can be activated even if your weapon is shown, and not equipped. Which is why is best to buy cheapest weapons that have those specials, since they can be activated, if they are shown (Lucky Hammer, etc...)

If you have one weapon equipped that has a special and another shown, only the shown weapon's effect has a chance to activate.

If you have one weapon equipped that has a special and shown a weapon without any special, no special effect will happen.

For items that give special effects too (Grove Tender set/DragonKnight set, etc) they need to be equipped to activate. But weapon doesn't.

For example, if I have Grove Tender Helm equipped, and Grove Tender Blade only shown, both effects will still activate.
DF AQW  Post #: 47
1/18/2020 19:05:59   
Beleg Strongbow
Member

@Dratomos and @Cronomancer Callum,

Consider the following scenario:
  • Weapon 1 is equipped.
  • Weapon 2 is shown.

    In this scenario, I am assuming the following results:
  • Weapon 1 is contributing to my character's stats.
  • Weapon 2 is NOT contributing to my character's stats.
  • Weapon 2 Weapon 1 is determining the attack element. [EDIT: Corrected which weapon controls attack element. Thanks, @Cronomancer Callum and @Dratomos, for the clarification!]
  • Weapon 2 is determining special bonuses and abilities.

    If the above assumptions are correct, it seems to me that the primary benefit of being able to show a weapon different from the one equipped is that the equipped weapon may have the better stats while the shown weapon may have the better bonuses and abilities. Furthermore, if my character's rank is too low to equip a particular weapon, am I still able to show it and benefit from its bonuses and abilities? [EDIT: Thanks again, @Cronomancer Callum and @Dratomos, for clarifying that only weapons at or below your character's rank are able to be either equipped or shown.]

    < Message edited by Beleg Strongbow -- 1/20/2020 13:06:54 >
    • DF  Post #: 48
    1/18/2020 19:45:11   
    ProbablyCallum
    Member

    		Shown weapons determine the special and do not effect attack element except for some fringe case. The equipped weapon determines elements, stats, damage and all that and special simply will give you access to the equipped weapons special, though some specials can change the element of your attacks such as grove tender's nature resist weakness seeking will override your equipped wep's element if the conditions are met.
    Also you cannot show weapons that you're not at the level of, same as equipping.



    < Message edited by Cronomancer Callum -- 1/18/2020 19:47:47 >
    DF  Post #: 49
    1/19/2020 16:14:12   
    Dratomos
    Helpful!


    		 Beleg Strongbow

    In the following scenario:
    *Weapon 1 is equipped.
    *Weapon 2 is shown.

    In this scenario, the following results are
    *Weapon 1 is contributing to your character's stats.
    *Weapon 2 is NOT contributing to your character's stats.
    *Weapon 1 is determining the attack element (unless Weapon 2 can change it with its special bonus, Grove Tender Blade)
    *Weapon 2 is determining special bonuses and abilities.

    If your level/rank is lower than the weapons, it cannot be equipped or shown.
    DF AQW  Post #: 50
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