RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (Full Version)

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Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 1:07:34)

Kaise: I Got 100% Win against these Casters TM With Focus BH.
But Im Not Bh Anymore. Or You saying that caster tm can't win Str bh?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 9:34:00)

Infernal Android

@Mother1,

quote:

As for how it would be abused people would do just like they did before with focus builds while spamming tech to power up the bot. They would wait for it to get to it's max power, while beating you up, and then when it is time for rage they will use the special to finish you off. It doesn't help that it will be at 140% of it's max power since by the time it gets to rage it will be fully powered up.


This is not different from how it is today. Players today still use Focus and high-Technology to use their Infernal Android to maximum utility. Players today still can wait for a rage mod to use the laser. Players still can "beat you up" while waiting for the Robot to cool.

The main difference I see is that the maximum damage level can be reached within 5 turns, opposed to the, what was it, 13 or 14 turns and that is understandable. The problem with this current design is that players need only endurance to survive, and maintain the same and increasing damage range for the remainder of the battle. After the time bomb, the player with the Infernal Android has a Plasma Bolt equivalent (or more) to use every 4 turns for the remainder of the battle.

My one condition is if this is as you said, massive damage in the fifth turn (or whenever there is rage). On that condition I will consider changing the starting value to 90% and ending value to 130%.



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 11:35:38)

seeing a lot of TLMs and TMs Heal Spam with boosters just to use the Android to its max capacity...



Super Fat Man -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 11:39:55)

Same here. But I usually see it in tactical mercs



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 11:46:14)

In 2v2, 80% of the players i battle have 5 focus+high tech+ infernal android build. Infernal android needs a change, make the special 100% and that's it



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 13:16:02)

Darkwing then that would defeat the whole purpose of the bot having the power of the delta vault at a lower scale. you might as well call the bot a weakened version of the gamma bot sense the only thing that makes it different then the gamma bot skill wise if the fact that it powers up over time yet you want to nerf it to the point where it is does the same damage as gamma but at a lower attack base.



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 13:48:52)

Personally? I think the Infernal Android SHOULD be nerfed to a more considerable level. It is now on par and even BETTER than the Gamma Bot.


Players paid a hefty 50$ for the Gamma Bot.


Whereas, you could get the Infernal Android for FREE.


And don't start all that Varium haz too much advantage crap.


I AGREE that the gap should be considerably smaller, but not non existant. I think vars deserve to have a bit of an advantage. Why? WE pay.

Yes, this sounds like a varium noob rant, I understand. However, MY thoughts on fixing this is NOT wiping out the edge variums have.


The new system makes it where variums have no edge, they just get items quicker and pretty weapons and armors. Ok. For that, I would not drop a single cent on this game. I want an advantage where I can get latest, more powerful weapons, NOT the same items with the same stats and damage that a non var can get for free for just farming.


If you want the advantage lowered, fine. Nerf the amount of enhancement slots. Raise the cost of them. Give out some better armors.

DO NOT get rid of the varium advantage totally! Cause really. Who would pay 50$ for 10k varium, 30,000 creds, and a pretty item just so that a non var can get the SAME thing for farming for a few days.


OK.

That went slightly off topic, but it was boiling to the same thing. Infernal Android now has the power of Gamma, if not better.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 13:55:51)

quote:

The new system makes it where variums have no edge, they just get items quicker and pretty weapons and armors. Ok. For that, I would not drop a single cent on this game. I want an advantage where I can get latest, more powerful weapons, NOT the same items with the same stats and damage that a non var can get for free for just farming.

The point of new system is to ELIMINATE the Varium advantage. It's work or pay, should've been that way since the start and nerfs to classes caused by enhancements and abusers are because of the Varium advantage. Do you know how much F2P are affected by it? The point of new system, as I said, is to give you a choice of working for your item or using Varium for a quick purchase. Nothing else. Enhancements work in same way yet no one finds it a problem? Reduction in price for Credit ones will happen soon'ish.

Also because you paid, it doesn't make you better than others. You paid to get your advantage and you still have it so there's no problems. Once new system is used on more items, you won't have a need to spend money on Varium so you shouldn't be affected at all.

quote:

DO NOT get rid of the varium advantage totally! Cause really. Who would pay 50$ for 10k varium, 30,000 creds, and a pretty item just so that a non var can get the SAME thing for farming for a few days.

Work or pay. Simple as. So you say advantage is fine because you pay for it? Not everyone has enough money to keep buying Varium often and I thought fact that Varium isn't a must is a good thing.. People moan at overpriced Varium and now when it's not forced onto you, it's also a problem. <_< >_>



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 14:04:15)

quote:

So you say advantage is fine because you pay for it? Not everyone has enough money to keep buying Varium often and I thought fact that Varium isn't a must is a good thing.



Aparently yes, because are not we the ones who help the game expand? As said here:


quote:

Congratulations!
You are an awesome player that has supported at least one of our games!



I'm sure being a payer should have SOME perks, not just quick items.


And if no one buys varium anymore...wouldn't it shut the game down? This is a business, Trans. Just my point.



Bunshichi -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 14:18:39)

quote:

should've been that way since the start and nerfs to classes caused by enhancements and abusers are because of the Varium advantage.


I can agree with that.

quote:

I'm sure being a payer should have SOME perks, not just quick items.


This also. We also get enhancements but are an annoying cost.

I for one would not find myself buying a huge amount of varium in this case since I can just buy the same item with credits getting nothing out of it but a less detailed weapon.
The same as AQW.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 14:19:10)

If ED is giving new system and considering it to use for future items, Artix wouldn't be a fool to ruin the business plan since you cannot test one major feature and lose on it. Wait, so why do people buy ACs in AQW? They are alternative to Gold when it comes to classes. If ED is giving Credit option then why do you find it a problem if ED loses money on it? Players rant at balance and yet this can improve it. BAD THING. Players rant at overpriced Varium and now it may not be a must to buy. BAD THING. Seriously time to make up your mind.

Also you helped game expand but what's your point? If I buy a cake in a shop, do I expect it to keep giving me bonuses because I bought a cake there? You bought it and it's gone. And with Varium, you bought it, still have advantage but it won't last forever. Work for it or pay for it, there are two way and not everyone is hardcore player to farm Credits so for casual players, Varium is better option.
2 days ago, I bought Varium to enhance the Armor fully. Why didn't I use Credits? I mean they are for free and don't they push me away from even buying Varium? It's not your business to look at ED and think if they will lose money on it because you aren't running the company nor it affects you if they lose money or not. AQW does fine with ACs purchases yet it's a problem here that Varium is alternative, not a must.

quote:

I'm sure being a payer should have SOME perks, not just quick items.

Yes, you do have them. Easier to get items if you aren't hardcore player, enhancements are much cheaper, you don't really have to farm, Varium-only items still exist that are unique (and promos too), more houses, more Bots, overall bigger variety in items. What else do you want? These enhancements and Varium abusing in form of enhancements killed some classes. Unless you wanna see nerfs to CHs still because they abuse things like hell. I'm fine by that but you wouldn't be happy with nerfs and neither would everyone. Devs nerf everything? Well they wanna stop that and it's a problem.. Seems legit to go against it. <_< >_>



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 14:25:10)

People are always saying they won't buy varium anymore but I doubt that. Enhancements is one huge reason for this reasoning of mine. Unless you want to spend over 1k battles getting the credits to enhance the average non varium gear(6-7 slots a weapon in the worst cases) let alone the 9 slots we've gotten on the LQS items. You're thinking you can handle 1k battles but the problem is that during that whole time you'll end up with a lot of factors being put into play. Things like level cap raising, new weapons and balance changes. Very few players actually have the capability of supporting themselves solely with credits. I'd say you'd need at least 20k wins to be able to have your weapons and enhancements on them considering the current standards of non varium gear(35k per weapon, 29k armor and 14k bot plus the probably 7-9 enhancements for weapons and armor). If you can't AFFORD the time to farm all this? Buy varium since TIME=MONEY.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 16:52:47)

ND Mallet is right. Now if they removed promo items, Made enhancements for all these items dirt cheap like they do with Varium, and make all of the varium only features have cheap credit features, then Varium sells would go down the flusher. While they are closing the gap between the two groups, the gap is still there it just not as big anymore.

Raynieds56 The bot got a decent nerf. When it first came out all I would read about is how the bot was killing the game, and how it is forcing people to go to focus builds to with it to compete. Now it takes 15 turns for it to reach full power. In order for it to become stronger then the gamma bot, it takes turns in battle as it should since it is following the delta vault which was weak at first, but with time it gets stronger.



Super Fat Man -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/17/2012 17:51:58)

Wait a minute if everything was balanced why would we need to change class? [8D]



kaiseryeux21 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 0:59:47)

^i can answer that. being everything balanced doesn't stop anyone from changing class. Most of the players changed class to try different skills, strategies and to have fun.

like me, i was a non var player but i changed class 3 times already. i was a TM before, then changed to CH, during infernal war i changed to BM to get fast wins and now that the war is over, i changed to BH. and i thought of sticking to BH all the way because i think the class is good. so there are lots of factors affecting class change and not only balanced.

lastly, i don't think the classes will ever be balanced 100%. so i guess we just have to find a way in order to make our build better, have fun and everything will be fine.



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 1:42:40)

hey guys i got an idea for tactical mercenary debuff skill without it being too op. ok here it is: replace frenzy or stun grenade with another passive or non passive skill it's called a fume grenade it is like smokescreen except you don't use energy or use a bit of energy like frenzy and at each level there is a specific point of debuff so it doesnt get improved with anything.
fume grenade
weapon requirement: non
level 1: decrease 24 dexterity. 6 energy and 30 support required
level 2: decrease 25 dexterity. 7 energy and 32 support required
level 3: decrease 26 dexterity. 8 energy and 34 support required
level 4: decrease 27 dexterity. 9 energy and 36 support required
level 5: decrease 28 dexterity. 10 energy and 38 support required
level 6: decrease 29 dexterity. 11 energy and 40 support required
level 7: decrease 30 dexterity. 12 energy and 42 support required
level 8: decrease 31 dexterity. 13 energy and 44 support required
level 9: decrease 32 dexterity. 14 energy and 46 support required
level 10: decrease 33 dexterity. 15 energy and 48 support required
improves with: none
also it has a 3 turn cooldown
and the smoke effect also lasts 3 turns
so you could not immediately smoke someone else.

since now nearly all tactical mercenary including me use infernal android's energy laser, so this won't be much problem.
tell me what u think guys.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 4:42:40)

How would it work?



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 5:18:13)

FOcus tlm with infernal android took over 2vs2, if u give them a debuff they will be even stronger. the support requirement won't affect them since they got 45 support. the energy cost is too low, and they got reroute and they will spam it



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 5:21:49)

@woots ok im goin to explain how to use it and why tactical mercenaries should have this skill. first off every class has a debuff skill and only tactical mercenaries don't, and talking about strength blood mages or any class that has a debuff skill. strength hunters have smoke and therefore even if they have their defense and resistance low you will get blocked often and that means u could only rely on your gun and aux and your bot does nothing since it's primary attack does get blocked too. second there is caster, support and strength mages which has many offensive and defensive skills and now that they nerfed assault bot and bloodshield which takes away your health for a limited amount of points there is really nothing you could do. and strength blood mages has offensive attaks and intimidate and oh god i hate that skill it takes my stength down to 8-10 and i hit like 20 while they gain 15 health while they do 20-30 damage every turn without getting blocked or deflected so i could do nothing and wait till they rage and kill me. and mercenaries even though they have no energy regain but their intimidate is still very effective against many balanced builds i am a 5 focus tactical mercenary with infernal android and i love this class but it lacks a debuff skill and lacks any skills that uses support so basically leaving me a tech spamming build which gets defeated by strength builds easily or a 5 focus build which still gets defeated often many times and i don't know why but im asking a question to many tactical mercenaries out there do you often block someone even though they have less dexterity than you or do you often deflect a blood mage even if you have a monstrous technology? im not saying that i expect to win every battle with tactical mercenary but now we really lack any good skills. so a debuff than allows us to have a bit higher chance to block and still deal some damage while being intimidated and have an decent defense against malfunction would be good. and as you all agree the most balanced class right now is bounty hunters and they have a debuff skill so to me if 5 other classes have a debuff skill so why don't we have one?
well still its up to you to decide.

@darkwing seriously? you think tactical mercenaries are strong with a 5 focus build? just remember infernal android special does energy damage and a 5 focus techmage or cyber hunter can do way more damage than tactical mercenaries since they have malfunction and tech mages can both malfunction and use technician so while we cannot do anything about malfunction and rage infernal android with a decent damage think of the tech mage with technician on and malfunction he will be most likely to deflect me while him doing mass damage with their gun boosted by deadly aim and plasma bolt.



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 5:33:20)

@ trizzcentrino tech mage has no passive armor so they can't tank and put more points into tech, Ch has no reroute to use skills over and over again. CH and TM can only heal with...field medic. TLM can use frenzy, SS, FM



TRizZzCENTRINO -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 5:46:28)

@darkwing lol this clearly let me know that u are not an experienced player. tech mages have technician so they wouldn't need plasma armor and cybers still has a debuff skill and a passive shadow arts and they focus most of their points into dexterity so as i said tactical mercenary has the most melee skills frenzy could be blocked double strike could be blocked atom smasher could be blocked and whats the point of using field commander if you still could be blocked often and yes i could resolve this problem by adding more dexterity but we still have mineral shield so we well be weak to every energy attack.



Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 6:06:22)

evry class lacks things. I may lack experience but you lack a good reason to buff a class. technician wastes a turn, costs energy and lasts only a few turns. You got a passive armor out of nothing. to get a good technician you need DEX or some points into it. Ch has Shadow arts? that is a luck skill.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 6:10:43)

I asked how it worked. xD

Well, it's been a long time since I lost to a Tactical Mercenary. But not sure how it goes on their point of view.



esheraz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 11:25:32)

The Dragonoid Brain needs to be Debuffed like seriously im lvl 31 tech mage and hes too hard



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XI (9/18/2012 11:56:21)

The boss was never meant to be that easy. Unlike the rest of the bosses you actually have to think before you fight it. Also having one of the new weapons will help you as well. That extra bit of damage along with thinking before you play will take you far.




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