RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:07:03)

@Lord Sinastr

If you have higher dex than me i cant win you In 20 matches the most i can do is 15-5 that means 4/3 = 75% against TMs , and i have to agree TM is the most weakest class against str builds , Def Matrix stay only for 3 turns and not improve blocking chance + malf is not decrease Str TLM's connect chance

The best way to counter a str build is BLOCK , when everybody said str Mercs with Cyber Shillelagh was oped , i was winnig them , i was using Reflex boost , yes Reflex Boost against Energy Primary because it was making me block atleast 2-3 times.

And sry but i need to tell this , you got 3k wins and i got 34k wins so there is an experience difference between us , you need to duel with a str TLM with 3k wins because i saw few str TLM uses Frenzy with full hp :/ (probably they copied the build and someone told them to do Smoke-Frenzy-Strike......)



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:09:52)

My def is 27-33, high enough? I tossed just about 20+ enhancements on it.



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:17:47)

Okay feel free to nerf any skill but please make a new skill like the skill you are about to nerf but with the nerf. Example: nerfing technician, you nerfed mages and TaM as well.

My opinion replace Hybred with Bld Shield then have reroute on fourth tier 3rd row. Like this

Medic, Double strike, Bld Shield

Maul,Technicain,Aton SMasher

Artillary,Toxic Gernade,Frenzy

Smoke, Surg Strike, reroute.

Medic Connects to Maul, Maul connects Artillary and Toxic Gernade. Toxik gernade connects to Smoke and R-route
Double Strike connects to Technician
Bld SHield connects to Atom Smasher, then frenzy. Frenzy connects to surg strike



zion -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:27:19)

@Clutch:

I believe you are referring to defense matrix - TLM could have DM instead of hybrid: it would be more powerful for sup abusers but it would cost a turn and mana.

Basically TLM would become a techmage with smoke instead of malf, stronger attack options and a support based multi attack -stronger but not too easy.

So that's DM and BS instead of hybrid and tech, and they could be put at the bottom after some club-only attacks.

Would that work?

--Noiz



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:33:43)

@ TurkishIncubus


quote:

I think you saw this strategy in your dream world because non Str TLM use 1 lvl smoke and the pro Str TLMs use +4lvl Frenzy and +4lvl Maul so a good strategy will be

25(7lvl smoke) + 18(4 lvl Maul) + 14(6 lvl Frenzy) = 57(without reroute) + for increasing skill lvls you should have 5 lvl reroute which gives 25% energy and maximum amount a Str TLM can get from reroute without dying is 20-25 so a Str TLM maximum can do 1 smoke and 3 skills(see its not 1 smoke 6 skills)



Well go and see other strngth TLM maximum hav lvl 1 Maul and smoke ranges from lvl 1-7 and frenzy lvl 3-7....y lvl 1 maul coz Maul at every lvl ignores 20% defense
and Yes TLM can use multiple attacks by reroute and heath boosters


quote:

I dont thing you know the meaning of Oped because if you can win Str TLM that means you are more stronger than Str TLM and it cant be OPED.


let me tell u If I use anti-strngth TLM build I do win mostly but loses against other class .... while Strngth TLM will against most build of other class
So who is Oped .... Yes TLM are!!

quote:

Its funny , when i was TM they said i am TM lover and just protecting it , then i changed BH than they said i am BH lover and protecting it , now i changed TLM and the samething continues

The only thing i understand from your posts that you are a new player with maximum 5 k wins because you have super imaginary wrong strategies.


Dude I have been playing ED since beta as I was non-varium b4.. now I hav a varium account so better not to judge my experience in Epic Duel

quote:

Its funny , when i was TM they said i am TM lover and just protecting it , then i changed BH than they said i am BH lover and protecting it , now i changed TLM and the samething continues


Well idc wat u were b4 ... Yes you are protecting coz u r a TLM NOW



Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:34:08)

Hmmm not sure Hybrid armor is going anyplace soon so removing it completely isn't likely. That's like the defining skill for a merc of any type. Moving it to the bottom of the skill tree is interesting but it only delays the max out and uses up only one additional skill point. I'd rather see reroute at the bottom of the skill tree under two "maul only" skills and then under double strike, make double strike a "sword only" skill and give reroute a healthy DEX requirement. Then its off to addressing field medic and those pesky support abuse players of all classes especially the TlM.



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:39:13)

I think my idea could work with a few changes



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:42:11)

I think that we should have Blood Shield be two-skills-in-one, like the robot attacks energy or physical. Two buttons appear, one for Defense, one for Resistance. Toggle on-off, you can basically choose which one you want. And instead of just taking 10 HP at one time, we can have a 5-10 DoT that lasts on them for the duration of Blood Shield. They can toggle off, and that would make the DoT stop, but it would waste turns, which would counter the OP. Basically, make Blood Shield toggle on/off physical/resistance with two buttons, then have each turn give them a DoT, until Blood Shield stops, or when they stop it themselves. Remove Hybrid completely if this happens, or, change hybrid into this idea:

Rank 1: 105% defense. (IE, if I have 16-20 defense, 105% of 16 rounds up to 17, 105% of 20 is 21, so now my defense is about 17-21 from Hybrid)
Rank 2: 110%
Rank 3: 115%
Rank 4: 120%
Rank 6: 125%
Rank 7: 129%
Rank 8: 133%
Rank 9: 137%
Rank 10: 140%. (If I have 16-20 defense, at rank 10 it turns into about 23-28, which is better than 29-33 from regular Hybrid. This only starts to favor Mercs if they get to 33-40 defense (121 dex), that’s finally when they get +14 from Hybrid. But to get that high they waste a lot of stat points. And at the normal 80 or so dex, they only get +11 from Hybrid on average. And 80 dex is still pretty high. These percentages might not be very accurate, but it gives a general idea on how Hybrid should be remade.)



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:45:20)

A 100% increase to 16-20 makes it 32-40



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:47:39)

Sparticus move Hybrid to the bottom takes up 12 points instead of 9



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:51:06)

No, Lord Nub, I mean 105% of your total defense.



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:52:35)

The problem the testers talked about was the great synergy in the skills, so I think the problem is the combination os skills itself not and not the placement.



Celestine -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 14:57:32)

Staying on the topic of Field Medic, I'm actually fond of the idea of the skill becoming static. This prevents support players from abusing this skill and will be beneficial in the long run. In some of the other games I've played, any skill involving healing adds a small portion of health back to your HP, in this game a level 1 FM can recover half of your HP. Don't you guys see a problem with this?

If it becomes static, players will have to increase the level of FM reducing the skill points they allocate in others skills. Reroute is a problem, but what it allows you to do is more a problem. Field Medic is one of those things, perhaps the most prominent effective one. By reducing the effect of it, it becomes harder to stabilize your build which then reduces it's effect on others.

If it is formulated right, this could be one of the many good improvements in balancing the game.



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:08:15)

^Seriously...

Basically this would buff STR abusers so that they are even more OP than they are now. Being able to heal high is the only way a support user can survive against a STR TLM.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:08:33)

Actaully, now that I think about it, Field Medic can work like my idea of Hybrid

Level 1: 20% of health restored
Level 2: 24% of health restored...
3: 28%:
4: 32%:
5: 35%
6: 38%
7: 42%
8: 45%
9: 48%
10: 50%



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:08:56)

quote:

Reroute is a problem, but what it allows you to do is more a problem. Field Medic is one of those things, perhaps the most prominent effective one.


So you recommend taking out a repercussion instead of the source itself as wiseman?

Hmmm wonder why the game is in such a state....

There's only two options. Get rid of Reroute or Hybrid or do something to Hybrid as many others have suggested in this thread already.

Field Medic and Technician is certainly not the source of any issues here BUT what they are, are yet more mage skills. Why not just delete Mage from the database altogether since that's the direction people are suggesting.

@ Lord Sinistar two posts above,

Indeed you are correct. It seems ignorant game play is what is wanted. In the scenarios suggested here, we will all be str builds running around mashing the strike button. If the goal is to make this a 12 and under game then I say go for it! If not and your trying to add strategy, your going completely the wrong direction.

@Joe,

Hybrid idea wouldn't work because that's only hurting the builds with low dex to begin with. Higher dex builds will actually see an increase of def. Also the field medic wouldn't work as a strength spammer would heal as much as someone going for a more strategic type of gameplay.



Elf Priest JZaanu -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:09:44)

Medic can be an issue, but the true cause is support. Support just does too much. Support is one stat that can boost your medic and increase your aux and crit percentage also quicker rage. It is the strongest stat in the game, and just about every class can use this stat as a stand alone and compete in all angles from Offense, Defense and Factors.

If the game continues in this path with minor adjustments instead of stat overhaul, as Wiseman mentioned, and many others on the old forum, an introduction of another stat would force players the balance their builds over being self reliant on one stat with little sacrifice.




Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:18:02)

Can anyone comment on my Hybrid and Field Medic ideas? I feel skipped :P



Celestine -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:26:37)

@Lord Sinastr:
Keep in mind that this would just be one step in reducing the effect of Support abusers.
It is the most overpowered stat, so reducing it's effect is one step in the right direction. I also never said it would reduce the effect of Strength TLM's, because it wouldn't.
Wiseman mentioned a couple of pages back that they are going to rearrange the skill tree of the TLM class so it would be harder to make any overpowered build that it already has.

@Lord Nub:
Field Medic is not a repercussion, it's an overpowered skill. If a skill can neglect the effect of others skills in one single use, it is overpowered.
The fact that Reroute enables you to repeat this skill contributes to it. Wiseman has already mentioned to me that Reroute is an overpowered skill as well, he is not ignoring that fact.

Obviously if FM becomes static, I doubt they would implement it without making other changes to weaken Strength abusers. Both are a problem, I'm just giving a suggestion that effects one.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:34:57)

JZ you make a good point

STR: Increases Damage
Dex Increase Defence and Increases chance to block
Tech increases Robot Damage, Increases Res
Support: Increases Chance to go first, Increases chance of Deflect, Increases Chance of Crit, Increases Aux Damage


That is why if i make a game i will not make something even remotely like Support becuase it has been shown in three phases at least that it is a Stat that can be spammed for an all around style Attack and Fedil Medic improving with Support measn it can also be used for defence



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:39:48)

@Celestine, I totally agree with this if the goal is to destroy support builds and make everyone strength. Personally I enjoy strategic gameplay as opposed to ignorant strike strike strike but that's just me and we all have our own views.

I'll state this again. When you nerf Field Medic your in turn nerfing every build out there EXCEPT str builds. Are they not already a concern? It requires absolutely no strategy whatsoever aside from timing your atom smasher or emp. How does one recover from such ignorant gameplay? You heal and allow the stats you didn't put into str to help win the battle.

Also keep in mind 20 support players still have a chance to crit as they refuse to introduce the 0 in this game. So when your crit from a player with 100+ str and 20 support you should just accept defeat? Nah I prefer healing as do many others thank you very much for your concern but I'm not here for quick luck battles. I'm here for a strategy based PvP game.



Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:41:46)

@Joe10112: I see you (Avatar reference) We do see what you are suggesting and it's certainly in the right direction.

Celestine is only discussing isolated possible changes. Wiseman was also. You would have to read all the posts, put them all together and then try to figure out all the possible configurations of stat changes, skill tree changes, skill alterations and requirements to see the big picture here. Discussing isolated fixes and taking them out of context of the bigger set of fixes will always lead to confusion.

TlM skill tree alterations, field medic changes and altering requirements for some skills seem to be the prevailing wind. Some method of support and strength abuse are definitely needed but no one seems to have their thumb on the problem. I still press the case for reroute changes especially DEX requirements but that seems to be just me ATM>






Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:53:32)

How come we never had a skill that lowers the support stat???



Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 15:59:42)

Who would you give it to? How would you have it increase? It would raise your chance to crit and deflect others which is terrible as it is now.
Nerfing someones support when they have normal support would be as bad as having too much support in certain circumstances.



redxtra -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 16:10:08)

@greenrain

thats a good idea but what class would have it.
and plus it could have a triangle effect with smoke and malfuntion
like malf lower tech for smoke, smoke lowers dex from what ever that skill would be named and that would lower support for malf.



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