RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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GoldenNeo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 9:59:21)

TLM's should be stopped getting bullied. XD



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 10:03:48)

Wiseman I have to challenge your opinion here. Field Medic is NOT the issue. This game already has a huge luck factor and if a player gets unlucky and is crit or deflected from a lower support user or blocked by a low dex user, how are they to recoup? Heal of course.

If heal is nerfed any further, every game is literally going to be 2-3 turns and COMPLETELY based on luck. We will also be facing an issue with the same builds and classes over and over again creating an even more redundant situation than we have now. I know you have had something against healing since day one as every time we faced off in beta you were always complaining and I think your hatred of the heal loop mage is haunting you.

CH is not an issue as they don't have an extra 13 def. There's multiple things you can do there to defeat them. The issue is Hybrid and Reroute TOGETHER. I don't understand how you people keep putting this aside and blaming everything else. Are the testers so bad at this game they don't understand the good builds or abilities that are in plain site?



edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 10:32:13)

The biggest problem IMO next to having hybrid and reroute at the same time is how they can use frenzy and have the ability to take mp coupled with above statement.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 10:43:48)

@Lord What he's saying is that the combination of Reroute and Field Medic is broken because one skill makes an hp loss get converted into energy while the other converts energy into hp. The synergy between the 2 is godly because they both restore what the other loses.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 11:03:02)

quote:

@ Turkishincubus
Tactical mercs will still be op, especially str tlm with static charge and frenzy constantly healing both ep and hp. I think both frenzy and reroute need to be removed for it to be balanced


Str TLM is not oped [:@] , first of all a str build cant be oped they depend on primary dmg so if you use rexlex boost or high dex build you can easyly counter , but supp TLM is , im using one now i only lose against other lucky supp TLM

By changing reroute - static charge will make Str TLM has same power but supp TLM will not be able to do Healloop with high support and less str

AND

BALANCE THIS STUPID LUCK FACTOR , low stats shouldnt do more luck factor.

Deflection: Every 3 supp advantage should increase your deflect chance by 1% and every 2 supp advantage should reduce oponents deflection chance by 1% (so low supp oponent will have much lower deflect chance and high supp ppl will have same deflect chance)

Block:First of all if both players have same dex they both should have 4% block chance (its 15% now :/).And Block chance could be lowered to 0%(now its 4% min) , with 4% ppl can block our most important attacks like Frenzy , when its blocked you will spent energy + no HP return + lose of 1 turn and you had high dex :/

Critical:The min crit chance should be 0% (now its 4% Str builds with ridiculous supp can crit against you).And the 50% crit def/res ignore should be lowered to 30% , crits should be a helping thing not decisive in game , c'mon its higher than rage , Rage ignore 45% - Crit ignore 50% :/ ridiculous , in rage you need to fill the rage meter(arround 3-5 turns) but crit is random and ignore more def/res than rage :/ so if you do 2 crit in a game it will be equal to 3 rage and your oponent did only 1 :/



Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 11:04:34)

@The ND Mallet Guy: You said it correctly, any time you can convert energy to HP and then back again so freely and passively while tanking behind hybrid armor and good stats.... well that isn't very balanced.

The combination of reroute, field medic and technician in one class was unwise. What to do about this is the DEVs current quandary. Last time they nerfed field medic by adding an additional cooldown turn. I'd like to see reroute at the bottom of the stat tree under 2 club only skills. That would be a fine start.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 11:36:51)

@WM I'm gonna play around with teh TLM skill tree some more and hopefully i can create something that removes as many points from the classic TLM Skill tree(Max Hybrid, Lv 7 Reroute, Lv 7 Frenzy) as my proposed Skill tree For those who didnt do the math the Normal TLM Skill tree costs 24 levels(nine in Hybrid 1 in Technician 7 in Reroute 7 in Frenzy) where as my suggestion costs 28 levels (1 in Mual, 7 in Reroute, 1 in Technicain, 7 in Frenzy, 1 in Smokescreen, 1 in Artilery Strike, 10 in Hybrid)

Now my suggestion does not exactly weaken Support abuse TLM as they can have his Skill tree

1-1-1
1-1-1
7-7-6
0-0-M

But that is better then what they can do now which is
1-1-M
0-1-1
7-7-9
0-0-0



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 11:39:43)

I agree with Turkish here...

STR Tacts aren't That OP'd...

But I DO NOT like the fact that even with 67 Support, STR Tact mercs with +- 21 Sup STILL end up first... ALL the time
My STR BloodMage is nothing against a STR Tact merc, but my Dex Super Charger is actualy very good vs STR-busers...


Support builds on the other hand...
70 AS / +-33 - 38 Aux / +60 lvl 1 Field Medic

It's just rediculus... not to mention due to Reroute, they can easely regain enough Energy for another AS or a lvl 1 SA

Making a Reroute Copy except with STR requirements for Tacts would fix it aswell



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 11:43:34)

quote:


originally by Wiseman

@gk365: The problem isn't reroute, the problem is Field Medic. Cyber Hunter can almost heal loop, and it doesn't even have Reroute. Reroute by itself isn't overpowered, it's when you combine it with Field Medic that the problems present themselves.

That's all I have to say about the issue, for the moment.


Field Medic problem .... well Yes your words is true for support TLM

Now see the normal gameplay of Strength TLM and see how reroute help:

Smoke--->Maul---->Double Strike---->Frenzy---->Maul---->Double Strike -----> K.O.

Well so many move from strength TLM .... guess how???? ..... do they have more energy pool??? .... No ..... then how??? ..... Ans: REROUTE

_________________________________________________________________________

Before Evolved Class came out ED was almost balanced:

BH bloodlust used to give 9-10 lifesteal which matched Mercenary Hybrid Armour +12 (Balance)
TM heal loop matched BH bloodLust (Balanced)
Mercenary were somewhere able to counter TM by high strength build with little more energy pool (Balanced)

After evolution class came out:

Strngth TLM pawns BH and BM through high casting skills and frenzy (look above) and additionally with frenzy and Field Medic and high primary defense .. Bloodlust cant give proper output
Support TLM pawns BH and BM through support abuse, Heal Loop
Support TLM Vs Support TM .. TLM wins coz they have better defense

Hardly anyone can see a Varium Mercenary
CH are unnoticed still
Balance has become a JOKE
____________________________________________________________________________

Testers test and test (dont know what? .... coz they havnt told us how and whatare they testing)
Dev and Testers promises Balance .... soon it will be 3 months WHERE IS THE BALANCE??
Some players are quitting, some are taking a break from ED, some are yelling in forums and fighting in ED against OPed TLM, and majority are changing their class to TLM
_____________________________________________________________________________

WHAT CAN BE MORE EMBARRASSING??



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:02:15)

@FrostWolv

quote:

Smoke--->Maul---->Double Strike---->Frenzy---->Maul---->Double Strike -----> K.O.


Its imposible that reroute give that much energy its maximum Smoke-Maul-strike-strike-strike-Maul or Frenzy so dont throw ridiculous strategies from your mind and stop trying to show str TLM is OPED just because you cant win

Let me say how weak a str TLM can be

1)All skills are blockable
2)They have less resistance
3)They 90% of the time unlucky due to their low supp
4)Their 95% of the attack power is Physical attack some TLM's 100%(if they use physical gun)
5)Now their % skill not improve with str

If you cant use these weakness for your benefit thats your problem and there is nothing wrong with it. Let me say how this "Str TLM OPED" thing started , a clever *sarcasm-i mean noob* couldnt win a str TLM than he/she run to forum and wrote Str TLM is oped *he/she dont know how to stop a str build* than other clevers having 1 lose against str tlm *sarcasm* see that post and say "ohh yeah Its Oped i couldnt win them at my first try" than ppl did a myth about str tlm is oped.

The reality is i hardly do 95% with it , I play 15 NPC every hour and sometimes its still not enough i have some hours with just NPCing and im turning crazy every match because my oponents do 2-3 crits.

Well im a full varium player with best weps for Str build and i belive im a good player in ED , with 40-50% NPCing i hardly do 95% i think that proves str TLM is not oped.



Sparticus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:13:37)

STR TlM with that move set are easily put off by EMP then widen the DEX spread to enhance blocking. Even a BH like me can do that.
Energy management is key, I agree with you there. TlM have an advantage in that regard. My question has always been why?
They are tactical mercs not technician mercs.



MirageD -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:16:03)

i see one problem with TLM (and i'm one of them)...

i get down to the bottom of the battle...(one opponent left)....i attack....and depending on my remaining energy....can heal...or boost....then i attack ...then can heal if i boosted.....again attack...later boost if i need to and in one more turn can heal again...etc...if i'm up against another TLM...it's a burger battle (see spart's post)

maybe there should be a longer rest period for field medic??

i should have pointed out that i mostly 2v2



FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:17:53)

Mostly their dase energy pools is 44-50

now regarding energy : 13 (Smoke lvl 1)+ 15(DS lvl 1) + 12 (Maul lvl 1) + 10(frenzy lvl 2) = 50 (without reroute) + if opponent attack +30 energy approx is taken from reroute i.e. 15(DS)+12(Maul)+10(Frenzy) and dont forget booster adds hp and more ep from reroute

Well let me tell u ... I made a build with BM and mostly win against Strngth TLM but other class and build take advantage over me i.e. Lack in competitive fight

So thnx for ur BENEFICIAL advise (sarcasm- i mean defending ur luvd Strngth TLM)



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:34:42)

@turkish I do recall Mages having 90%+ when they had heal loop and they were easily considered overpowered. You should only be getting that high a ratio against NPCs when you have the best strategy and gear. A 95% ratio indicates that you only lose due to luck and very seldom at that.

Also;

1) Artillery and Surgical Strike aren't blockable and smokescreen gives more chance to hit
2) They need less dex so they can put more points into tech, buy an energy armor or invest points into Technician
3) Even when the strength ones go second they still dish out huge damage with Smokescreen and gain a lot back from Frenzy. Also, all classes suffer from having low support
4) It's your fault if you can't be strategic enough to use an energy weapon with your build instead of going full physical. Maul ignores physical or resistance depending on your weapon type.
5) Good, now Str builds are less overpowered and require more thought than "Dah, me put 1 point here. make me smash guy hard!" You're still better off using strength builds for Double Strike and Maul but now you actually need to invest more than 1 point to get huge damage.



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:38:27)

Ok remember if you nerf field medic because of TaM instead of just taking reroute from the TaM, your in turn nerfing Tech Mage yet again as they don't have +13 def and take TONS of damage. They also don't have bloodlust like many other classes and rely on that heal which is yet ANOTHER reason why they should be the only ones with reroute.

Stop one siding arguements and think about the other classes it affects. TaM needs to either have hybrid taken or reroute or we will always encounter the same issues.

@Below,

Neither of those changed anything. A level 33 can still max hybrid and reroute. Also remember reroute in no way needs to be maxed as it only increases 1% after 7 AND as we increase levels were back to square one.

Also OWA your overlooking yet another detail with that post. 36 dex for 13 def? Nah the issue is with level 33 TaM's not level 1's. Even a support TaM makes that 13 def equivalent to more than 36 stat points considering they must have a certain amount to begin with for equipment and artillery strike and they get more of a boost with equipment.

Like many others and myself had stated many times. One of these skills must go!



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:47:39)

I finished two TLM skill tree suggestions i read (Greenrain13 and Giras Wolfe)

Giras Wolfe TLM skill tree idea

Greenrain13 TLM Skill tree idea

i am still trying to create an affective edit that leaves Hybrid where it is but it is challenging becuase i feel the main source of power for both Merc, when it was OP'ed, and TLM is teh ability to have 13 extra defence or Resistance at lv 9 which is equal to 36 dex(12-15 Defence according to Stat progression page on the wiki) or 36 Tech which gives 13-16 Res(also see wiki page referneced before)



Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:51:18)

I'm still playing with the Idea in my head of the devs trying:

BloodShield ( Defences instead of Resistance )
same Hp for Defences like the Energy BloodShield
Lasts 5 turns aswell...

Always get attacked by Tact mercs about it crippling the class tho...



Lord Nub -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 12:57:32)

Nope I think that's a great idea. Allow them to keep reroute and switch hybrid to a bloodshield type of deal. Takes a turn to activate and they can't hide behind it forever.



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:01:33)

One winged angel: I'm not sure how well a poison move at level 2 works. Or a Atom Smash. It, in my opinion, is the most powerful skill, being able to take 40 energy at level 1. At level 1 both skill at charlvl, atom=emp, making it a tad OP.

I prefer greerains because having reroute as a tier 4 skill makes it require a minimum of 9? Points to unlock.



One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:18:26)

Lord Sinistar EMP is CH tier 1 skill and it is just as powerful as Atom Smasher requires no class specific item and is unblockable



both skills have there ups and downs

Giras skill tree you can couple up Smoke and Poison so that 25% of damage is more then if you were to just chuck out the poison grenade
but the Hybrid Reroute Frenzy cost is equal to my origanal tree(28 levles) so you could make teh following skill tree
1-1-1
1-1-4
7-7-3
0-0-M
You could switch Poison or Smoke for the 3 and give the other the 4

Greens Skill tree is different then mine but i dont see a noticable easy to abuse build in here either
the build i keep referencing would cost 29 levels and that leaves 4 skills to use


All in all if the Testers tried the suggestion from Greenrain13, or what i understood of it, they might find a decrease in TLM power



Clutch -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:21:44)

Here's my opinion and solution to the current balance issues:
The problem is a TLM's ease at using energy, so I have a probable solution. TLM's need simply have to activate their hybrid armor, a turn isn't going to kill them, especially considering they're probably going to go first with their support. But the energy cost associated with activating it should be enough to bring them down to size. Now, think about this, the energy cost can be decent say 30 energy for a max hybrid armor, this will cause the average TLM to have about 15 energy left. Now at 15 energy the TLM can't do much right away forcing them to have to wait till his energy comes back up. Sure they can boost, zooka, plenty of options, but this crucial time right off the back should help other classes develop a strategy without being bombarded by insane damage moves turn after turn, (i.e. zooka, artillery strike, frenzy...) The key difference will be that TLM's will have to manage their energy much more wisely, a Its really not a fair fight when they can heal and use their strongest attacks AND still have energy to throw around with moves like frenzy.

What do you guys think about this? Yes, no? Few modifications?



Digital X -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:26:05)

I totally agree with you there on the Hybrid situation, i like the idea of that, and besides, they only have to get hit the next turn, and they can perform another mana costing ability, while allowing you to do the same the previous turn. (I hope that makes sense)



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:39:49)

@OWA here's my idea

Medic-Dblst-Hybrd
#|####|#\###
Bldsh-FldCo-ToxGr
###/##|####|
ArtlStr- Smoke- StnGren
|#######/####|
SurgSt- DA- Atmsmash

Bldsh= bloodshield

Dblst= double strike

FldCo = field commander

DA =deadly aim

StnGren=stun grenade

What do you guys think?



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:52:48)

@FrostWolv

The maximum energy a Str TLM should have is 45 , i use 43 energy ,

quote:

now regarding energy : 13 (Smoke lvl 1)+ 15(DS lvl 1) + 12 (Maul lvl 1) + 10(frenzy lvl 2) = 50 (without reroute) + if opponent attack +30 energy approx is taken from reroute i.e. 15(DS)+12(Maul)+10(Frenzy) and dont forget booster adds hp and more ep from reroute


I think you saw this strategy in your dream world because non Str TLM use 1 lvl smoke and the pro Str TLMs use +4lvl Frenzy and +4lvl Maul so a good strategy will be

25(7lvl smoke) + 18(4 lvl Maul) + 14(6 lvl Frenzy) = 57(without reroute) + for increasing skill lvls you should have 5 lvl reroute which gives 25% energy and maximum amount a Str TLM can get from reroute without dying is 20-25 so a Str TLM maximum can do 1 smoke and 3 skills(see its not 1 smoke 6 skills)

quote:

Well let me tell u ... I made a build with BM and mostly win against Strngth TLM


I dont thing you know the meaning of Oped because if you can win Str TLM that means you are more stronger than Str TLM and it cant be OPED.

quote:

So thnx for ur BENEFICIAL advise (sarcasm- i mean defending ur luvd Strngth TLM)


Its funny , when i was TM they said i am TM lover and just protecting it , then i changed BH than they said i am BH lover and protecting it , now i changed TLM and the samething continues

The only thing i understand from your posts that you are a new player with maximum 5 k wins because you have super imaginary wrong strategies.

@The ND Mallet Guy

quote:


1) Artillery and Surgical Strike aren't blockable and smokescreen gives more chance to hitThe only problem with this is str TLM dont use Artilary and Surgical
2) They need less dex so they can put more points into tech, buy an energy armor or invest points into TechnicianI highly against this what you mean by "They need less dex" to increase connect chance they need high dex probably higher than the other builds.
3) Even when the strength ones go second they still dish out huge damage with Smokescreen and gain a lot back from Frenzy. Also, all classes suffer from having low supportSmoke+ Frenzy is a good strategy for str TLM but nobody said you should keep dueling with smoked you can use Assault Bot or a Buff skill to counter Smoke and like i said frenzy is a blockable skill
4) It's your fault if you can't be strategic enough to use an energy weapon with your build instead of going full physical. Maul ignores physical or resistance depending on your weapon type.The thing i dont understand is in "3)" you talked about Smoke + Frenzy combination then here you say Maul ignores also res so how can i use Smoke+frenzy and energy maul at the same time and if you use energy primary than Normal Merc is stronger with Berserker+ Maul because you will not use smoke effectively
5) Good, now Str builds are less overpowered and require more thought than "Dah, me put 1 point here. make me smash guy hard!" You're still better off using strength builds for Double Strike and Maul but now you actually need to invest more than 1 point to get huge damage.First of all after the "str dont improve % skill" update Maul is not effected because its not a % skill.And i always used 1 lvl double strike with str TLM the reason is DS is not the main skill of that str build i barely use it to kill non variums faster or if match become critical and i dont have enough energy for maul


For the TM healloop thing , that was OPED and now supp TLM also OPED too , i can do healloop with it easyly , if you want a real OPED build its supp TLM its almost unbeatable with a different build , today i used supp TLM and if i remove the loses against other supp TLM my ratio i 100%



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 13:54:29)

Turkish.

Do you think you can beat me? 20 times without taking a loss? I think so. Proving you OP.

[8|]

I'm a focus mage with high dex AND high attacks. With quite a bit of res.



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