RE: =ED= Balance Discussions

RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 21:17:58)
^ Ya, agility is kinda lame.

Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 21:42:17)
Before the stat progression mess a good dex\tech build could easily counter a support or strength build and that is how it should be but they made it easier to get high strength or high support then to get good defense or resistance. For the blood Mage we have no offensive skills that improves with support. Couple weeks back they told players they want defensive builds be more efffective but I have not seen it matter of fact i increased my Dex and tech and an Artillery strike still got 25/30 on me when you would think it would be less damage with more dex. They either need to make Intimidation debuff all stats and which ever stat is the highest gets the most debuffed or give the Blood Mage something that improves damage because since the Blood mage don't have malfunction we can't debuff tech limiting the damage of the gamma bot and now I very rarely block that cursed machine.

One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 21:49:26)
To all the guys commenting on my Skill tree goto the Wiki and just grab a SS of the TLM Skill tree then open it in paint and start messing around maybe we will make something great now to certain posters. @Green yeah it has some bugs i need to look into my goal for teh first try was to break apart the Hybrid, Reroute, Frenzy, move which are all on different non connecting paths now. @Spart yeah the synergy of TLM is it's source of power you break that you remove some of it's power Shari even said TLM had alot of Synergy in it's skill tree. @Edward most Varium "Pros", a term i use very loosly, use swords becuase they are better then Class Specific becuase they remove some skills. If i missed anyones comment shoot me a PM and i will get back to you

Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:10:34)
If devs aint gonna nerf Tac Merc, bring all the others up to par. What kills Cybers is the lack of a good passive. SA is just not worth the SUP points. Replace with Reroute, (they're Cyber Hunters, they're all about energy regaining, right?) or Blood Lust to even it out. Shift the order a little, Blood Lust/Reroute can't be at the very bottom. What kills Blood Mages I don't know. I find they look kinda like Tac Mercs...dunno why they're hurting.

PumKing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:23:00)
Dude, totally, have faced low lvl and high lvl BM, and you know what, they are preyyy boss, that plasma cannon kicks all kinds of gludious maximus, especially with bloodlust.

One Winged Angel1357 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:28:10)
@Joe i dont know you can only be on a sinking ship for so long before you relize it is sinking and TLM has way to much Synergy as it is even if BM and CH are brought up to par Normal classes, most notibly the very large F2P population using then, would be trashed constantly

Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:36:29)
I'm not sure about bloodlust for cyber hunters though; I mean, it would help but it might cause prolonged life (leading to heal looping) and blood mage and bounty hunter already own it. I vote for reroute and deadly aim still.

ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:37:54)
Why were bots nerfed? Because investing in a defensive stat gave way too much offense. But what do TLM's do? Invest in dex to improve Technician to improve their tech which improves resistance and smokescreen and smokescreen lowers dex thus allowing TLMs to deal more damage. At least bots didn't give both defense types and extra chance to hit when they were abused. A bot can only be used every 4 turns yet if a TLM goes strength with high dex he can get both great damage and defense every turn not to mention the fact that he can pull it off multiple times with Reroute. You can try to put every other class up to par with TLM but it's highly unlikely to happen without a nerf to TLMs.

Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 22:41:35)
I have a suggestion for TLM skills, improves with energy.

Wiseman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 23:15:06)
@The ND Mallet Guy: Indeed, technician should not exist on the TLM skill tree, it just gives them too many options. I think replacing it with something else would be better, perhaps Blood Shield. However Blood Shield is a bit underpowered itself, and until it's reworked to be a bit more useful, I don't think its a viable option as a replacement for any skill. @One Winged Angel1357: We are defiantly gonna rearrange the skill tree of TLM, like Ashari said it has way to much synergy especially for strength builds, although I doubt Hybrid Armor will be moving. :P

Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 23:31:58)
So one has wonder if staff don't favor one class over another and players constant complaints were about the over powered gamma bot and the class, the merc class, that was abusing the stat that improves the gamma bot, you have to wonder why they gave them technician instead of leaving blood shield with the tact merc. The gamma bot has two attacks while the Assault bot has one and is blocked more often so they should have left the Asssult bot alone and adjusted the damage inflicted by the gamma bot. Wiseman the bloodshield is not at all underpowered I fought many mercs that use it and it does reduce the damage from energy weapons greatly even when they were malfunctioned. Well hopefully the next couple of updates will bring real balance in the picture and deal with all support abusers and make the defensive builds more effective than what they are now.

Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/4/2011 23:57:59)
All in all, I think Cybers need a new passive. Reroute seems fine. I like having Blood Lust actually for them, but then the heal loop problem might present itself. TLM needs to be rearranged, have hybrid in the second tier (at least), artillery last tier, smoke 3rd tier? Just a thought.

Wiseman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 0:03:50)
@Hun Kingq: We defiantly plan to deal with support abuse across all classes, decreasing the damage from crits was just the beginning.

edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 0:09:25)
I thought the points of crits was to counter tanks and strength spammers. The way it right now is just overkill to people with decent support because of the vast gap in support created by enhancements.

Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 0:41:26)
Blood Mage seems pretty good. I mean, Plasma Cannon ~~ Bunker Blaster, and Blood Mage has Blood Lust and Deadly Aim, all seems well for Blood Mages. I don't know why they are griping... Cyber Hunters should get deadly aim... And although this would very much devalue TECH, it makes sense for your gun to improve with DEX. I mean, better dexterity in real life means you can shoot better. I don't care if you can punch me the hardest, if you can't aim worth a burger (made that up XD), you won't do much damage. So, it makes sense for your Gun to increase with DEX. Your Auxilary should increase with TECH, and leave SUP to increase alot of other things. But I know this would seriously hurt TLMs...which is good XD :P

edwardvulture -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 1:01:14)
^I think the devs tried to make the evolved classes so that they don't much resemble the original classes. e.g. no malf and DA combo should be unique for mages.

frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 1:06:40)
I got a question? How would TaM have a mage skill when they are suppose to be Bh+Merc or did i get it wrong? Anyways CH should have a skill that increases damage and inproves with energy.

Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 1:20:28)
Frosty, the Technician is out of place, I believe Wiseman said something about it a couple posts before. And CH (I repeat myself again, solely because I'm thinking about switching to Cyber if I get varium or enough credits), NEEDS A better passive. Reroute makes sense, blood lust works too but doesnt quite make sense. Or, make a totally new passive that gives HP/EP back onstrike/taking strikes.

ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 1:53:32)
Also, defense ignore on Maul is redundant for TLMs since they usually only get 2 extra damage from it. It needs removed altogether possibly since it was always a balance issue for just regular mercs. Double Strike can stay since it isn't a huge issue. And the biggest problem I see a BM have is that an energy drain destroys them. How do we solve this? Low energy skill replacing Technician. I honestly will admit I wouldn't mind seeing that symbol strapped to a missile and fired at the sun. It was supposed to allow for better casting builds in BM with the addition of Reflex Boost but it takes too much time to cast Reflex then Technician then start casting. Not to mention it cost a good amount of energy to do so. I'd prefer having it replaced by Bludgeon since the rest of the classes either restore energy somehow or have a skill that costs little to use and is good for strength builds(Cheap Shot and Double Strike).

Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 5:11:00)
Why Blood Mages griping because look at what was taken away and what we have avaible in battle that we have to be cautious to use since we have no debuffing with damage skill, no real energy gain unless we use a massive amount of energy, no energy stealing skills, the hunter class could steal upwards of 47 points of energy so if you don't know how to fight and win without energy, your dead in the water, two classes that can take over half of another class energy while the other classes can either take none, the Blood Mage, or max 10 points, the Tech Mage, is not a balanced energy steal skill. Everyone talks about the Plasma Cannon in a 2vs2 my partner had max plasma cannon put on technician, used it on a tact merc and only got a whole 25 points of damage I shot him with the stun Blaster got 47 points of damage and he had low resistance but had hybrid on max for resistance. For tact mercs they could have added 15% energy regain to the Blood Shield, not give them reroute. That way if they do anything to reroute it does not affect the Tech Mage class.

FrostWolv -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 5:35:01)
quote: originally by Wiseman Regarding Balance: This release only had one balance adjustment, which was the lowering of Massacres support requirement and a slight improvement in Massacres damage percents. We have a lot of balance changes lined up for future releases though, including a few ideas on how to fix the TLM and HLB (heal loop build) issues. Bro hope to see this balance ........ or gain you testers will fool us coz soon it will be domination of TLM for three months Lets see whether you guyz prove your words or not

zion -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 6:13:49)
@wiseman: I have to disagree on bloodshield. I use it on my alt merc and it is very effective for f2ps to counter malf - its not OP because you need to train it and its not UP because it lasts a long time and doesn't use energy. I think TAcMercs should keep hybrid/blood shield. Also, deadly aim without malf or smoke reduces its value a lot. Things that go together: 1) smoke or malf and bloodlust 2) smoke or malf and dealy aim 3) hybrid and blood shield 4) There are other examples... Things that are OP together: 1) smoke and hybrid and reroute: Let me explain: Reroute works best when you can use powerful skills without using too much energy - This is the basis for heal looping: If I have a ton of support and my heal doesn't cost a lot of energy, heals basically cost nothing. Therefore, if you have Hybrid Armor (which means you can put dex points into support) and smoke (which means you can move more dex into tech and support) - you have created the ultimate support abuser. The problem, however, is if you give the ultimate support abuser reroute, which creates the ultimate heal looper - which no one wants (to fight against). BTW the same issue would be the three skills plus the OP low-level attacks (DS,Maul,Frenzy) for a STR abuser. Some solutions: 1) Give TacMerc Blood shield instead of technician 2) Make DS, Maul and frenzy give less with less training - which is entirely fair after massacre and berserker were hit so hard - or make them cost more energy 3) Reduce the effectiveness of reroute - it shouldn't be more than bloodlust and have no requirements [and then field medic can return to 3 turn cooldown] Any other ideas anyone? --noiz

Wiseman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 7:56:59)
@gk365: The problem isn't reroute, the problem is Field Medic. Cyber Hunter can almost heal loop, and it doesn't even have Reroute. Reroute by itself isn't overpowered, it's when you combine it with Field Medic that the problems present themselves. That's all I have to say about the issue, for the moment.

Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 9:28:04)
By devaluing support, you are hurting mages, which I can say is a hard class to play. Also, heal loop is hard for a mage, seeing as we need good defense while maintaining solid attacks. Find a way to nerf TLM. Not TM. Maybe remove: Smoke and reroute. Blood images deserve a buff as well.

Calogero -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussions (9/5/2011 9:42:49)
Sticking with my opinion BloodMages don't need ' That ' big of an fix... Put Reflex Boost on Place of Intimidate Assimilate at it's original place If needed, Adjust the Support requirement of Deadly aim. I always said it, BloodMage on itself isn't that Underpowered, It's Tactical Mercs that make it look Underpowered due to them being able to make the Same builds as BloodMages except they do it much better... STR? BloodMages need Support to train their Deadly Aim They need to put Tech to train BloodLust Dex to have some sort of defences in the end, to have a STR build with somewhat of a Defence, I'd end up in a 28 + 33 Str build... Tact mercs can easely get other 30 + 33/34 damage They don't have BloodLust nor Deadly Aim making them able to put less to No Stat points onto Support ( They all have 21 Sup ) + 100 health, 30 + 33/34 damage, High defences Not even going to Mention Support and 5 focus builds

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