RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 7:42:48)

^ Maybe its because everyone already knows they are getting one.

And that most people know that the balance team already have the ideas to pick from so all we have to do is wait.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 11:47:37)

If you want more balance then you must not flame update features or the people coding them. As a certain DeV said recently, you no longer have hope until you earn it back. If you go off on a rant the staff will play ragdoll with your account. Or stricter punishments anyways.

Seacrest, out.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 13:15:07)

^I belive expressing you opinion is fine, as long as you state why, and perhaps possible alternate soltutions.

I dont see why people who express their particular liking to something is considered flaming..

If no one complains then the devs wont know how to improve.



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 14:34:01)

For me i think mercency should recieve a static charge [:D]



PivotalDisorder -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 17:48:01)

Wiseman hinted at some skills not being usable first turn. gotta be debuffs like Smoke Screen, Malfunction and Intimidate right? :)



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 17:56:55)

Where? Can you show me, please.



BaIllz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 19:34:02)

Question: The new balance tracker thing, does it track NPC? How will the balance tracker improve the mercenary class if only a few people play

it, and all they do is do NPC, because they can't kill anything? :O I really don't know what to do about this split hybrid armor atm,

because my build actually reqiured lots of tech, now I need more dex than tech, and it lowers my robot damage. I am still experimenting to see

how I can take advantage of this split hybrid armor, but mercenary has very limited skills...

~ BaIllz



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 19:48:04)

I doubt it tracks NPCs as they require same strategy over and over, while real fights are different. Now onto your questions:
Mercs might be rare now but that will prove they do need a buff as no one plays them, although there are still some out there, including my Lvl 28 Merc so they will still get data on it - don't worry. ^^
Balance Tracker will help Devs see if new Hybrid does better job or worse and they will change it depending on it - this will make all balance changes a lot easier!
About last question - you're better off asking in Battle Strategy as they will help you with right build and skills. :D



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 22:11:34)

@ BaIllz, as one of the mercenary players who suggested the split hybrid armor and as Cinderella said in the DN's the change is not really a nerf or a buff. The change allows you to invest more points in dexterity and less in technology. Mercs have 2 skills and robot damage that improves with technology. Both the skills that improve with technology are energy intensive and with the energy drain skills which can make them useless very quickly they are not a strategy that will give you a high win %.

The fact that there are no skills that improve with dexterity in the merc skill tree does mean that investing in dexterity will reduce your damage output as most skills improve with support and strength. But most of the attacks depend on the primary weapon striking so dexterity is needed, now you can invest more into dexterity...

The balance team are considering replacing blood shield now with a passive and I really hope that they consider a passive connect chance

This will help offset shadow arts, help skills such as double strike, bezerker, maul and atom smasher and thus allow mercenaries to invest some points in strength or support.

As for the usefulness of the battle tracker, I am not sure it will address the individual skills that are causing the imbalance, but will give a general big picture overview of what's happening in the game!




Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/14/2012 22:47:52)

Should evolved classes be stronger than the lesser evolved classes?



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 0:45:01)

^ No they should not at all.



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 2:05:08)

@G00NY: How does a reverse shadow arts sound to you? +10% accuracy, +10% stun resist. This combined with a revamped atom smasher (and some special assimilate modifications for the mages) is a good step towards pseudo-balance



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 2:14:07)

The evolved classes were never planned to be stronger than the other classes. Why on earth would we have the regular classes if the staff planned on making new classes to replace them in power?

@xendran The only problem I have with Assimilation is the fact that the damage of it effects Reroute. What good does a mana drain do me if the TLM or Mage restores it all back from the attack I just hit them with?



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 3:42:42)

Also, why does a TM with reroute need to gain a pathetic 1-6 energy from assimilate? I have much better ideas in mind.



Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 6:22:56)

I'd like to hear them, Xendran.
Personally, I think Assimilation should get changed to something that still drains Energy but adds Health instead of Energy to the players Health Pool.



Ashari -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 6:34:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psibertus

Wiseman hinted at some skills not being usable first turn. gotta be debuffs like Smoke Screen, Malfunction and Intimidate right? :)

Yep, that was one of the options we've thought about to shrink the first turn advantage. Debuffs, especially Smoke Screen and Malfunction, immediately force the other player into a defensive playstyle. This can be easily abused by high damage builds to keep pounding away while your opponent has to heal or shield.

One problem with this solution was that this would seem like a random exception to the usual battle mechanics to the average player... no doubt causing a bit of confusion if a skill with 0 warmup is unusable. Changing the warmup of debuffs to 1 doesn't really solve the problem either has it affects the player going second as well, so they still can't retaliate to a debuff until after it is cast.

A rage bonus is a simpler way to deal with the first turn bonus and probably the route we'll go. Every class and build benefits to different extents from their debuffs so the extent it counteracts the first turn bonus would depends on far too many factors to be balanced. Rage on the other hand, is universal.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 6:43:46)

quote:

Yep, that was one of the options we've though about to shrink the first turn advantage. Debuffs, especially Smoke Screen and Malfunction, immediately force the other player into a defensive playstyle. This can be easily abused by high damage builds to keep pounding away while your opponent has to heal or shield.

One problem with this solution was that this would seem like a random exception to the usual battle mechanics to the average player... no doubt causing a bit of confusion if a skill with 0 warmup is unusable. Changing the warmup of debuffs to 1 doesn't really solve the problem either has it effects the player going second as well, so they still can't retaliate to a debuff until after it is cast.

A rage bonus is a simpler way to deal with the first turn bonus and probably the route we'll go. Every class and build benefits to different extents from their debuffs so the extent it counteracts the first turn bonus would depends on far too many factors to be balanced. Rage on the other hand, is universal.


i assume that intimidate will be left alone compared to smokescreen and malf?
i mean its already weak, and only debuffs primary and side arm damage.
but there is still aux, robot, and other skills aswell.
even then the debuff doesn't seem big unless u have huge str.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 7:51:37)

@Xendran, seems workable for a start.

@Ashari, the rage bonus is a good idea, would it increase in 2v1 and 2v2 as well. I assume the points added to rage bar would increase with level. Let's just say for a level 34 they get 20 rage points (for the sake of pulling a figure out of no where). So going second in a 1v1 they get 20, in team battles would the 3rd player get more, say 25 points and 4th 30 points, on the basis that it is 4 level 34's playing?

@goldslayer, I was thinking that to improve intimidate they could add a turn to the cooldown of any attack used while intimidated... ^.^
So for example if the opponent uses a robot the cooldown is 4 instead of 3, the exception to the rule would be primary and gun since they are negated by the strength debuff.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:00:30)

@goony
that or a higher rate of support required for next intimidation point.
(like every 4 intimidate u get a +1 point debuff instead of every 5 support)
this would help counter the many str builds in the game.
and since merc and BM are the only ones who have it, i would find it fair.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:02:24)

I would put the following under not usable if you have the first turn.

-Fireball (because if they start and fireball not much you can do to prtect yourself from the zerk)

-Maul (starting stun zerk is a no no)


I have a question about the debuffs being put under this rule.

Most mages,CHs,TLMs malf and smoke the first turn because they wont to gain their mana back as soon as possible.

It may be a bit unfair forcing them to only be able to gain mana like the third turn of the battle.


Maybe a possible solution if this starting skill ban was placed.
Perhaps reroute/reflex/asimilation/static charge could gain mana above and beyond the mana bar.

for example a mage get attacks the first turn when they have full energy, it gives then 10 energy, they have a full bar of 48 energy BUT the bar gets extended to 58.

Same thing could be done for health bars but it is not as importanat to health gainers because they can start gainaing health usally by the first or second turn.



OR

If people think its unfair that energy gainers get a above and beyond mana bar, then perhaps people could invest stat points into have a above and beyond bar the bonus is for one stat point you get 5 extended slots for the bar which is not full at the start of the battle BUT can be filled.

Same could be done with HP bars.


An example would be a player has 95 hp, they also invest 5 stat points into the above and beyond health bar making the health bar total 120 (5*5=25 + 95)
at the start of the battle the player will have a semi empty health bar with 95 hp but the total bar can be up to 120.

Same exmaple for energy bar.

Note: the above and beyond hp points does not take into account of agialty so you can have a health bar with potential of 120 hp (the above example) yet not reduce your agialty.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:20:02)

quote:

-Fireball (because if they start and fireball not much you can do to prtect yourself from the zerk)

-Maul (starting stun zerk is a no no)


why are u trying to nerf a class thats weak?
maul was removed from tlm. why complain about it.
maul is probably the only thing that gives merc come close to having a chance at victory.
i used a str merc build (very well thought of) and got 80% including NPCs.
and it was thanks to maul for most wins.
are u trying to destroy that 80% and make it 60%-65%

also i am a bloodmage right now, in order for fireball and berserker to do a 2 turn kill
it requires high energy and str.
it also needs high HP that depends on survival to execute these moves.
even then u still wont win with fireball and berserker alone.
atleast not against a full var who knows what he's doing.

and if u go second against a class like tlm, ch or mage u might aswell hang urself on the spot and go to the next battle.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:26:44)

Im not nerfing classes that are weak.
Im mainly thinking of the future but these build are a bit of a problem now.

Im by no means saying that blood mages are oped.

But if they start with the killer high strength builds.

Most builds can not counter it, in order to counter it you have to be a power abuser aswel and it should not be like that.


No class should have ways to kill people without anything they can do about it.
Even if it doesnt always work and Im sure luck is agianst them ALOT, but never the less some cases they pull it off and in a game like this it should not be alowed.



XNunMagX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:26:48)

I agree @goldslayer1
I'm a Merc, lv33, and Maul has saved me a ton of times. Also, I never saw a high level Merc~Varium.

As a Merc I'd say that they should include some skill that increases Dex/Def, since Hybrid now gives +6Def instead of +12/13.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:28:52)

^So you have started,
Stunned then zerked leaving you oppenet helpless and you call that saving yourself, did you ever think that maybe its a bit unfair

I didnt say I wanted maul removed Im just saying that is the player starts they should not be aloud to use it the very first turn, if they are second by all means they can do it, but if the player is msart they would think of a way to counter you before that.



XNunMagX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:31:21)

Lol, no.

I have enough Energy for:

1 Bezerker (level max FTW)
1 Maul + 1 Heal

Still, Maul is a great help



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