RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:32:25)

quote:

Im not nerfing classes that are weak.
Im mainly thinking of the future but these build are a bit of a problem now.

Im by no means saying that blood mages are oped.

But if they start with the killer high strength builds.

Most builds can not counter it, in order to counter it you have to be a power abuser aswel and it should not be like that.


No class should have ways to kill people without anything they can do about it.
Even if it doesnt always work and Im sure luck is agianst them ALOT, but never the less some cases they pull it off and in a game like this it should not be alowed.

it can be easily countered with a heal or a shield.
heck, or an an energy take away that does 34 (to take away fireball and have that player 1 point short of a zerker)

btw remorse when i tried str merc, most of the people i won against probably have never seen a str merc, wouldn't know how one plays, or how to counter one. because its a build not usually seen. rare in most cases due to too many nerfs.
to keep nerfing it is pointless.

and these types of build are the ones we call "suicide striker" why? because ur chance of winning are low, and u can easily be killed as quick as u kill others.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:35:27)

^

Thats fine im not saying you cant use maul e.e
Im just saying it is not a fair fight if you start then stun then zerk.

the other player should be given a chance to think rather then just refresh the screen or hope for crazy luck.


@ goldslayer1

In my opinion, I think any build that can force a win withput even giving them the chance should be not aloud. (yes I know that they have slim chances of actuly being able to pull it off but if they do it is not fair)




Blood mages are actuly NOT easy to counter. if they start.

thye start firball, you proberly have about half you hp left, no you think you can shield or emp do you?? obvilosy you havnt tried in this situtatin because you sheild they will either gun or zerk depending on watever sheild you used, if you emp theyl gun , after they gun you are either dead or have about 1-15 hp left, then you could heal, then they strike you have about 30-40 left then you can get you FIRST attack in while they are almost up to a rage gun in which case the rage gun will kill you unless you boost and if you boost they will almost have full hp through blood lust.


I could go on but i know how it goes they only way to win if they start, UNLESS you have a build specifically for them is to get EXTREMMLY lucky and build like this should not be aloud.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:36:25)

quote:

I have enough Energy for:

1 Bezerker (level max FTW)
1 Maul + 1 Heal

Still, Maul is a great help


look at the huge requirement for that.
45 for berserker
12 for a lvl 1 maul (if its lvl 1)
and another 17 for a field medic if its lvl 1.
imagine how low his defense and HP must be in order for such a build to have good effectiveness.

also ur not factoring block rates since these types of builds tend to have low dex.
and ur assuming if it hits, and stuns.
even then the other player might have enough hp to survive that, in which then he heals.
and beats the str merc in the next 2-3 turns.



XNunMagX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:43:21)

My build is VERY effective, yes. (Linky: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/mahstrbuild.png/) ~Fixed



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:45:46)

@mag
ur link is blank or doesn't work.

45 energy.
hmm i dont see u using maul and zerker in the same line unless u use an energy booster. which then it wouldn't be called stun zerk combo.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:47:48)

Methods of killing people without anything they can do, even if the chances are extremly Slim, SHOULD NOT be allowed in a pvp game like this.



XNunMagX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 8:59:45)

I never said I use Stun+Zerk combo.

Also, my Maul hardly stuns, I use it because it ignores 20% Def :P


I think you misunderstood me D:

I have enough Energy for:

1 Bezerker (level max FTW)
OR
1 Maul + 1 Heal



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 9:45:31)

^

Goldslayer and I both have diffrent perspectives as what should be allowed in this game,

Im not saying that maul should be delted I'm just saying that certain combos usally when the players is lucky enough to get the first turn can almost force a victory with very little the oppnent can do about it.

Maul when you start then zerk, is one of those combos that leave people helpless, yes it doesnt always happen BUT it shouldnt be allowed at all in my opinion.

Were are goldslayer thinks it is ok if players can get free wins if they use a build which loses alot BUt has the potential to defeat anyone providing luck is not agianst them and they start.
And his opinion is not necesarily wrong and niether is mine thye are just conflicting opinions.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 9:56:02)

quote:

Im not saying that maul should be delted I'm just saying that certain combos usally when the players is lucky enough to get the first turn can almost force a victory with very little the oppnent can do about it.

the same can be said of my enemy when he goes first debuffs and 3 turns me. leaving me with no hope of winning unless i do a major turn around like crit stun, and crit berserker.



XNunMagX -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 10:00:00)

I see and I respect your opinion and Gold's.

It's annoying get stunned at first turn, indeed. So what do we suggest, 1 turn cooldown Warm up for Maul?



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 10:02:39)

@mag
cooldown is 2.
i think u mean warm up turns.

IMO i think it should be left the way it is.
it might be seen as unfair atm, but it also seems like its merc last resort weapons to having a fair chance



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 10:23:59)

Goldslayer you look at something being fair, by looking at a number of battles.
So to you starting stunning, or starting fireballing then zerkinging is ok because it doenst always work.

But I look at the indivdual battles, I see if it happens at all it is not fair.


BUT

I do agree with the starters who start then debuff and 3 turn you, Like I said to beat power you must be Power.

And to your disliking I think it shouldnt be like this.

You should not lose in 3 turns without luck and you should not win in 3 either.

What makes it worse is these builds can kill those who dont want quick kills, with effortless wins in a sence.


If a way to counter power builds were made,
that means you could use it versing your wekaness the debuff 3 turners and everyone else could use it agianst you, but the succsesor will be more or less the person with better startegy NAD THATS what it should be NOT the person with the most power or the lucky start.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 10:39:46)

@remorse
u cant judge a build or class by an individual battle.
because then all u will see are 1 sided results.
i may hit u with fireball, and with gun and then berserker
its all fine and dandy
then the next match u go first, debuf me.
i fireball. then u hit me (my hp would be down to 30-40 out of 120 by now)
then i gun and get deflected and assuming i have a third turn berserker gets blocked.
or maybe u go first and do an EMP that doesn't let me use berserker or fireball at all.

IMO u shouldn't be blaming the firebal zerker stun zerker players.
but urself if u cant make a strategy to counter them, like EMP Specially when u go first.
altho they are power full hits, but they cost alot of energy and can be ruined by something as tiny as assimilation.
or complete overkill by high lvl EMP or high lvl atom smasher.

and in most cases, like i have pointed out earlier.
these builds die quickly and loose alot, so they aren't really preferred by varium players, but more preferred by non vars. (all non var mercs i see have a stun zerk combo) and its probably their only chance, even if it means stunning and doing zerker leaving enemy at nearly 20-30 hp



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 11:08:00)

^ IDC
If counter can Work SOMETIMES.

I know and use them all the time, often my weakness is I try to use startgical counters when i would of been better off trying to kill them before Im killed.

The point is if you dont start they get an almost gaurente WIN!

You HAVE too look at the individual battles otherwise you WONT be able to determine what is fair and what is not.

IT is NOT fair if players can win effortlessly just by starting.

That is why ED's battles have gone down the drain.

All you see are constant power builds who basically win when they start and usally lose if they dont versing someone of equal power and with the same type of pointless build.

It takes away all the entertainment of playing this game, when No diffrent stratgies are used....

Either counter needs to be made or power build loose thier power (remove enhacments effects)

Or this game will get slowly worse in the battles department.



od -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 11:35:48)

quote:


Original: Xendran
Also, why does a TM with reroute need to gain a pathetic 1-6 energy from assimilate? I have much better ideas in mind.


Don't underestimate assimilate. It saved my life when fighting npcs such as charfade and Caden. Since they had reroute, I could use it over and over. I probably regained over 40 energy without having to take a single hit. Assimilate is also great for when youre 2 energy short of a heal but your opponent won't hit you. Blood mages should have one of their spells (Plasma cannon, fireball, overload) removed or used to replace plasma rain and slide in assimilate in the empty space



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 16:02:08)

I would like to see agility redone because agility makes people want to tank.

Keeping in mind, the fact that after around 6 or so hp, it becomes more useful than a defense point, but it also makes the game more fun and feasible. (I still like my idea from old EDF of adding 2 zero's to everything, if you had 95 hp, you would have 9500 hp, if you did 23 damage to that person, it would do 2300 lol)

Anyways, agility makes it easier for people to tank, also, once we get into high lvl's, im talking about 35, having 95 hp is gonna get boring afterr a while, as it allready has.

I feel, that there is more room for strategy when you can poor in hp,, even if you dont have reroute, you can use 51 energy, and heal twice, or 2 times.

Agility has gotten on a lot of our nervs, and is one of my least favorite parts of the game.

If agility was dramatically raised, i think the game would be more fun, and balanced.

Mages would no longer be the underdogs again.

Tlm's and Cyber Hunters, wouldn't tank as much.

Not quite sure of the effect it wou;d have on bh's since i dont know much about them.

If a mercenary at lvl 30, had his stat requirements filled out, then all into hp, with moves that have combo's adding to 41, or whatever much that have, they can again, be back into the game.

When were lvl 40, having 95 hp, will be dangerous to the game, for ine, the stats of weapons will be greater, and we will have more stats, with 95 hp, we could have around 80 in each stat with enhancements.
Does anyone else support a revamp of agility?




Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 16:20:30)

Limit class changing to two per phase that way it would limit the stat abusing class hoppers
from ruining balance adjustments trying to be made, they do this on purpose to keep the game from progressing.

For the Players that keep saying the Blood Mage is balanced them become a Blood mage and stay a Blood Mage
instead of trying to convince the Programmers not to improve the Blood Mage.

At the beginning of Delta it was made clear that no new skills will be added to the original classes so
now new skills are being considered for the merc class one where they can basically rage Artillery strike or
Bunker Buster in the second round, that is not any kind of balance, that is making two powerful skills
too powerful (overpowered).

The two new classes basically have two armors now without using energy while the Blood Mage has to choose between
an energy Armor or a physical Armor.

Intimidation only affects the stat not the weapon damage that is one reason why it is ineffective the other reasons it does not
help increase damage and does not affect any other stats.

Since the Start of Delta with each update the Blood Mage has been inadvertently nerfed. The Blood Mage only has one thing left
that increases the power of the two least used skills, Overload and supercharge, but when you use reflex boost to increase
the power of the two if the opponent has high resistance then that boost will not make a difference.

The strength and fireball build can be easily beat, if you have Plasma Armor then wear a physical Armor. The fireball is a physical
attack the more defense you have the less effective it is. I was hit with a high strength fireball build and all they got on me was
34 damage, for those that thing 34 is all that powerful for max, then you have no idea what power is.

The new class should be able to compete against one another without one overpowering another.
To bring balanced between the new classes this is what the Blood Mage needs
A debuff skill that increases damage or a debuff skill that affects multiple stats and the skills/weapons
that those stats improves.

An energy stealing skill that is on par with atom smasher/EMP grenade that ignores reroute.

A better energy regain than 15%.

Increase the power of the Plasma rain so it can be equal to multishot and Artillery strike, for the ones that say they are equal in power,
I have not seen any of that equality at all in any 2vs2 matches.

Well it is quite clear that since improvements have not been made to the Blood Mage Class they will never be made but they are working on the
original merc class and maybe to bring everyone's idea of balance to the Blood mage class, the programmers should take away Deadly Aim so they
could get another nerf but to many that would be considered an improvement.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 16:22:27)

@Hung King

I have not read all of your post, but this game, will probably not be in a testing phase much longer, so maybe, 2 changes, every 6 months?



Oba_2 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 16:31:02)

quote:

I would like to see agility redone because agility makes people want to tank.


I have to agree with that. Back in beta, before agility and focus, you could see all possible builds. Super dex, massive str, high support and heal loopers. And that is what I like about RPG's, you should have to chance to create whatever playstyle you want to, without getting slayed. Back at this phase, each class also was pretty good balanced if you ask me. Mage's could beat Merc's, Merc's could beat Bounty's, and last but not least could Bounty's beat Mage's. It was a circle, everyone could play as they wanted to.
But now a days I see more and more copies of build, and 90% of them is 5 focus. And this become really boring, really fast. Same build, over and over and over.

If I could make the choise, I'd delete agility, and focus. It was way more fun to play back in beta.



DANG3R0US M1ND -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 16:46:13)

@Hun Kingq

I fully agree blood mages need to be improved.
The other evolved class IMO are better than the originals.
Tac merc is better than merc no question, cyber is now better than hunter with the addition of plasma armor, but mages are better than blood mages in the way that the are able to make more builds that work.
So far the blood mage build that works for me is strength fireball/berserker (have not tried dex build with overload/supercharge but if it works thats 2 good builds).
Tech mages successful builds are high dex, high tech caster builds, i have seen a very good str build and 5 focus.
My point is something should be done to improve this class, also i prefered assimilate i wish they did not get rid of it as now blood mages have no energy take/regain (besides reflex boost). I would get rid of intimidate and replace it with assimilate or something that would help.



Oba -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 17:35:06)

quote:

I fully agree blood mages need to be improved.
The other evolved class IMO are better than the originals.
Tac merc is better than merc no question, cyber is now better than hunter with the addition of plasma armor, but mages are better than blood mages in the way that the are able to make more builds that work.
So far the blood mage build that works for me is strength fireball/berserker (have not tried dex build with overload/supercharge but if it works thats 2 good builds).
Tech mages successful builds are high dex, high tech caster builds, i have seen a very good str build and 5 focus.
My point is something should be done to improve this class, also i prefered assimilate i wish they did not get rid of it as now blood mages have no energy take/regain (besides reflex boost). I would get rid of intimidate and replace it with assimilate or something that would help.


I also hope that now when they've made CH stronger (perhaps even OP'ed(?)), I hope they will focus on BM. Assimilate is a skill they should get back, would make them to a equal level with TM/BH/Merc. Then when that is done, they need to nerf TLM and CH. And to make this possible they need to expand the tester team (or else it will take time!) and I hope Lycus read the PM I sent him! [:)]

Instead of Assimilate maybe a new skill could take its place, merge a blood lust like skill with a skill like reroute. But making it as strong as these 2 skills would make it OP.

23% health regain from dealt dmg + 30% energy regain of dmg taken would be OP.

So I suggest to make a new skill, with these 2 skills in it, with a decreased % of them both.

Lets make it from level 1 - 10

Level 1: 8% health regain from dmg dealt + 10% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 2: 10% health regain from dmg dealt + 13% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 3: 12% health regain from dmg dealt + 15% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 4: 13% health regain from dmg dealt + 17% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 5: 14% health regain from dmg dealt + 18% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 6: 15% health regain from dmg dealt + 19% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 7: 16% health regain from dmg dealt + 20% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 8: 17% health regain from dmg dealt + 21% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 9: 18% health regain from dmg dealt + 22% energy regain from dmg taken.
Level 10: 19% health regain from dmg dealt + 23% energy regain from dmg taken.

When this skill is at level 10, it is as a level 6 Bloodlust + a level 5 Reroute. It might need to get decreased even more to not get OP'd.

I have no idea really what it should be called, what stat it would have as a req or anything else than what I just wrote. This just popped up in my head now.

(Maybe I should have wrote that in the skill/class suggestion thread instead [:D])



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 18:07:57)

I have a better idea. Let's make Fireball regain Energy, though it will be kinda OP.



psycho009 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 18:14:34)

please, a bh or ch with emp and massacre will end u fast....



steven11113 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 18:23:08)

Why not make it something where you gain health and energy by just attacking it kind of like static charge but we kinda need to lower the %.
More like this:
Lvl 1:20%
Lvl 2:22%
Lvl 3:24%
Lvl 4:26%
Lvl 5:28%
Lvl 6:30%
Lvl 7:32%
Lvl 8:34%
Lvl 9:36%
Lvl10:38%
where you take 70% of the damage It will have tech requirement Warm Up:1 Cooldown:3



frosty123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/15/2012 18:32:27)

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