RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 7:31:32)

quote:

I believe BM's now need a defensive passive buff similar to Tactical mercenaries and Cyber Hunters since many players are choosing very defensive builds.


i wish that happens i love being OP ;)



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 7:38:42)

I agree with Turkish.

Blood mages are by no means weak.


No matter the strategy I use, I always end up dead when I verse them and they start providing I dont get extremely lucky.

The only way I have a hcance agianst them is If I make a power build in other words high hp and attack.

If blood mages can take down anything with lowish HP and anything less then 70 damage per turn. Then they seem to being pretty dnady.


Giving them anysort of defence passive would be the worst ever mistake made by balance. They would be 3 times more powerful then the TLMs ever were and the TLMs were at least 3 times more powerful then anything before them yes even looper mages.


Blood mages may need diffrent skills, but the blanace team must choose wisley anything that gives there strength build even the slightest buff will destroy balance, mark my words.

Something like a mana drain would be fine to give them, because their power build relieys on dealing massive damage in short amount of time.

A while ago I made a possible skill to give blood mages in exchange for overload.

Its called nightmare.
costs no energy rather a small amount of hp (similar to blood sheild)
drain you oppennets mana and give yourself 50% AND has a 20% chance to stun.

mana drain range from around 20-40 mana drained and up to around a 15 hp sacrifise.
It also improves with dexterity.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 7:43:14)

quote:

Giving them anysort of defence passive would be the worst ever mistake made by balance.

seem like they gave it to CH ;)

so thank you and the Q_Q complainers who said "remove hybrid from tlm"
cause now u got hybrid remove from them.
u nerfed mercenary,
and u gave CH a plasma armor (yes people requested a passive armor like hybrid but for CH)



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 7:59:07)

^ Gold, you know how powerful their strength builds are.

Now imagine that with a passive defence.....AND BLOOD LUST!


Yes cyberhunter got a defence I I persoanlyl think their strngth build strategy should be nerfed because of it (eg. make a new super for them apart from masacre)

Power builds should not have high defence that is the problem, and I will support anything you say that follows this one rule.


Mercs had Hybrid CHANGED, yes proberly worse for using with their power builds... well if it is then it was a great change.
But I do support mercs being helped aslong as it does no support powerbuilds WITH high defence.

Power build have a lack of weaknesses as it is, they do not need the luxury of high defence.



Xendran -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 8:03:51)

Dont worry about it, i have this all covered ;o
Behind the scenes, at the moment, but itll be revealed soon enough.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 8:09:51)

Lets hope the devs place a higher prority for balance :)

It seems that great balance changes are always made yet never implmemnted with lack of time, seems to be a real shame cause my opinion without proper balance new releases are almost meaningless.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 8:11:35)

quote:

Now imagine that with a passive defence.....AND BLOOD LUST!


imagine that passive armor, with static.
static gives a cyber hunter specifically tanks, more energy than what a tank could ever have with reroute.

im just saying, when people suggest crazy stuff like "remove hybrid"
or "add hybrid to cyber hunters"
they need to have atleast some data to back that argument up.

while it is a free forum, and u can suggest whatever u want.
atleast give some data.
and to the testing team taking these suggestions in, please do study these possible changes, and test them well.

because when u give cyber hunters a thing like plasma armor.
u need to be checking what its capabilities are.
in speed, tank, hp/energy/str/support/dex/tech, winrate %s, and versatility.

u cant just put plasma armor on the class and test only 1 side of it and expect that to be around the same results with other types of builds.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 8:21:38)

As a cyber hunter I no longer want plasma armour. a) Not very appropriate for a stealthy saboteur b) Permits near-invincibility with heal-loop.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 8:22:05)

@ gold
That is true and I agree that their strength build is too oped.


This was the only reason why I pushed for hybrid removed On TLMs because of their strength builds but maul was decent enough of a change.


TBH
Tank TLMs were never that much of a problem, THEY COULD be defeated by startgy were as Strength builds reily on you being in the right situation (eg. starting)

I dont think tank Cybers are much of a problem more of the fact you hardly see them, what you do see is constant srength cyber hunters and here is where the problem is.


The great versitility of cybers is great, All classes should be like this minus the overpowered strength type builds.

Perhaps a change of super skill on cybers is a good idea?

its shoudl equal the strngth builds with the others to give one very versitile class then they could start working on doing the same for all classes then before you know it.

We are in beta agian.



Chosen 0ne -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 11:39:09)

@Remorse, I wouldnt go as far as saying that. Beta did not have as much tanking because of agility. Beta let you use different builds that we can now, and you could use more of them efficiently.

Builds are limited to tank, and strength. Thats all you see.



Archlord Raistlin -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 19:49:02)

I love how posters who only care about fast 1v1 battles consider blood mage equal to
TLM and CH. Is the game really about how fast you can pwn someone 1v1? Try taking
your 95% win rate going first into a 2v2 battle against two 34 TLM's, two CH's or a combination
of both with your non-varium merc partner. Can you last 5 or 6 rounds with a weak partner...?
Can you last 3 rounds being the target and going last? Give it a try before speaking for all of us...

Before making these ill concieved statements...try to think of "all" of the playing styles and
battle modes. I am sure there are players who prefer some strategy versus playing the
same 3 moves over and over and over again...

Kudo's for everyone having a high win rate in one narrow point of view.




JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 21:45:32)

@GoldSlayer1
I agree with your version of the reroute/blood lust, but I think it should be it should be more like 15% for both, knowing that you have just lowered blood lust by 13%(From the original 23% to 10%). This should bring Blood Mages up to the compatibility of advantages and strategies as tech mages have since they have 30% energy return (reroute).

Also I think Blood Mages should be given again because technician was the only way to increase the Technology improved skills like Plasma Rain. There is no way Blood Mages can have a Good Multiple Target Attack like any other class now.

For example, a starter class, Bounty Hunters have Reflex Boost which can increase their Multi-Shot attack by 10 more damage points easily and their chance to block along with their stun grenades which is also improved with dexterity along with Shadow arts that makes them have like a 40% chance to stun and block(When they have Shadow Arts Maxed and have high dexterity and use Reflex Boost). This can be a devastating build to get matched up against.

Mercenaries, another starter class, have artillery strike which improves with support. This causes them to get critical and deflect and increased auxiliary damage. A mercenary with the best auxiliary in the game at the given time can do some serious damage (Like 30-35 +39 for base auxiliary damage with a high chance to add critical). Then after tat here comes a devastating artillery strike with about 75 damage(Imagine if the targets also had been attacked with Smoke Screen and the attack went critical). :O



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 21:56:19)

@john Don't bring the evolved classes into balance discussions about Multies and Ultimates. The staff plan on creating new skills for each of the 3 new classes for their Multies and Ultimates. Proposing fixes for something that will be leaving the class one day is just a waste of everyone's time in my opinion. Why fix something that's being removed entirely?



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:00:17)

http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=19824626

I was referring to this post sorry that I didnt include that or post it on there. [:)]
Also I meant to put 25% not 15%



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:02:55)

Also you have to include other classes, beacuse then you have no reasoning on changes other than you want the class to be OP. :/



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:09:43)

@John Yes but BM, TLM and CH will be getting entirely new Multi and Ultimate skills. Saying BM should get Technician back so it can improve a move that will be leaving some day isn't a very good argument.



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:12:26)

quote:

@GoldSlayer1
I agree with your version of the reroute/blood lust, but I think it should be it should be more like 25% for both, knowing that you have just lowered blood lust by 3% and reroute by 10% (From the original 23% to 20% and 30 to 20%). This should bring Blood Mages up to the compatibility of advantages and strategies as tech mages have since they have 30% energy return (reroute).

Also I think Blood Mages should be given again because technician was the only way to increase the Technology improved skills like Plasma Rain. There is no way Blood Mages can have a Good Multiple Target Attack like any other class now.

For example, a starter class, Bounty Hunters have Reflex Boost which can increase their Multi-Shot attack by 10 more damage points easily and their chance to block along with their stun grenades which is also improved with dexterity along with Shadow arts that makes them have like a 40% chance to stun and block(When they have Shadow Arts Maxed and have high dexterity and use Reflex Boost). This can be a devastating build to get matched up against.

Mercenaries, another starter class, have artillery strike which improves with support. This causes them to get critical and deflect and increased auxiliary damage. A mercenary with the best auxiliary in the game at the given time can do some serious damage (Like 30-35 +39 for base auxiliary damage with a high chance to add critical). Then after tat here comes a devastating artillery strike with about 75 damage(Imagine if the targets also had been attacked with Smoke Screen and the attack went critical). :O [:-]


the new skill trees wont be for a while so the MODS can at least take view and make some changes for now



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:24:20)

@john Or instead of implementing fixes for them, they could convince NW it's vital enough to make the new skills a higher priority on his list of things to animate and draw. Much better than wasting time making temporary fixes on skills and nerfing the OP classes while nerfing the not OP as well.



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:30:56)

Then there better be skills in that skill tree, like supercharge that improves with Tech or Dex and a Multi that improves with one opposite or else they be OP.



theholyfighter -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 22:57:22)

Blood Mages are fine now...All they need is an energy restore skill. That's.all I guess.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 23:00:18)

Not every class needs an energy resotre e.e

If they get one at all to not ruin balance further at most it should be a mini energy regain like asimilation.

AND they already have reflex, it is an energy gain, so what more do you want?? a stacking energy gain with relfex.... and bloodlust... and extreme power builds that destory almost every class just by starting.



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 23:32:01)

@Remorse
You also have to remember that reflex has a 15% energy regain which only last for the 3 turns it last which it only gains the energy it cost to use it usually and maybe a couple more points.
@theholyfighter
I think a skill maybe called Blood Restoration which restores Energy and Health but at 20%-25% at level 10(Max),however the percentage may need to be dropped a little



Wiseman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 23:33:45)

Blood Mage already has a way to restore energy (reflex boost) they will not be getting another one, just pointing that out.



Goony -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 23:35:50)

Umm, Remorse you continue to throw up these statements about power builds without facts...

I especially like the one about stun zerker builds and how they are OP, so I thought I would try that hugely OP build... I didn't record any videos as I don't like recording when I continuously die. I actually fought a lot of Cybers (Cinderella included) and was beaten to a pulp, blood mages owned me, mages ate me for breakfast, I had some success against BH and was a chance versus some lower level tacticals... I just don't get how you try to influence the discussion on the basis of maybe 1 fight where you were unlucky...

The balance isn't too bad considering the recent updates have not been fully completed.

If the balance team could rectify the heal loop cybers, possibly do something about energy regain skills as the strongest classes have either reroute or static...

Static is a pain it ignores intimidate and with plasma/energy armor covering resistance high dex means that they block a lot...

I'll do the battle tracker and if they ever publish the results it would be something like this:

Cyber - Tac: fairly even
Cyber - Mage: fairly even
Cyber - BH: just in favor of cybers
Cyber - BM: just in favor of cybers
Cyber - Merc: overwhelmingly in favor of cybers

Tac - Mage: fairly even, maybe just favors mage
Tac - BH: fairly even
Tac - BM: just in favor of tacs
Tac - merc: overwhelmingly in favor of tacs

Mage - BH: fairly even (I'd say this would depend on who goes 1st)
Mage - BM: maybe just favor mage, anothe rclose call
Mage - Merc: favors mage by a good margin

BH - BM: possibly BH, but a very close call
BH - Merc: fairly even

BM - Merc: favors BM by a good margin

When it comes down to class vs class, then going first helps a lot and so does luck.

The above critique is my opinion and is not a valid argument as there is no proof. The proof is in the battle tracker and I for one would like to see some of the spreadsheets ;)



JohnMenzies -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (1/16/2012 23:58:03)

In the Design Notes they should show the tracker for the weeks information it gathered for while it ran. Anyone else agree?



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