RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 8:28:35)

Blood mages do not deserve deadly aim.

Cyber hunters do not deserve plasma armour.

Tactical mercenaries do not deserve to have the most strike skills.

Tech mages do not deserve numerous spells that stack with rage and cannot be deflected.

Bounty hunters do not deserve massacre for the sole purpose of str abuse.

Mercenaries... they are cool with me... FOR NOW.

My opinion has been spoken.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 8:32:49)

^ Notice how almost all of your problems is because of effortless spamming power builds.

BM's deadly aim is fine without their STR build.

TLMs Strike skills are fine without their STR build.

Cyber hunters plasma armour is fine without their STR builds.

BH's massacre is fine without their STR build.

Merceanaries are cool because their STR build fails now days...


Anyone see a pattern??

Like I say STR builds/Power builds NEED to be balanced.
Not removed but at least given counters so they cant get free wins with effortless builds in the right situations.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 8:38:37)

I'm still for making Guns improve with Dex, which would also require weakening Dex in a way from defensive skill to semi-defensive + offensive. Or perhaps less Str input on the Guns, so they wouldn't do as much damage and weaken Str builds.
Another solution is making Str increase a lot slower, not every 4-5 points but making it decay a lot earlier in the game so it's harder to get as high damage as it is now with abuse.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 8:39:04)

Its funny. As soon as field medic is nerfed, players use the stat that promises 2-3 times more attack power than support, support having one of it's defensive skills compromised, isn't providing enough "firepower" for it's cost...

EDITED A TYPO



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 9:55:51)

@rej That is exactly why CHs are OPed. I use to think moving deflection to technology was a bad thing. But I noticed it is not as bad as I thought. As the maxium deflect chance is 25% and the chance improves by 1% every 3 tech. So it isn't that bad. 3 more tech then opponent = 1% 6 more = 2% 9 more = 3% 12 more = 4% 15 more = 4% 18 more = 5% 21 more = 6% 24 = 7% so basically you would need over 30 more tech then your opponent to have a decent deflection chance. Unless the math I did was wrong.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 10:19:59)

To increase strategy in all classes, i think all skill's energy should be reduced or it should be fixed energy, like 33 energy for massacre , 10 energy for EMP.

we spent skill pts to buff the skills + they require more energy which leads to 1 way spam builds. If i decide to use Max massacre it will require 60 energy, well with 60 energy only for 1 skill i will not have much options in skills. the most i can do is Malf-Static-Massacre. It becomes worst when you use non energy regain classes like BH and Merc and BM since they dont regain energy they are the weakest classes in game because of the 1 way builds.

The thing im saying is when you look your oponents build, you will 90% guess what he will gonna do, thats because of 1 way builds. The reason i was saying TLM is the most strategical class is because when you look old TLM skill tree, you cant directly say the skills TLM gonna use like he can Smoke-Maul-Frenzy or Smoke-strike-strike-Heal or Technician-Smoke-Double strike etc. There was alot options for strategy because of the low energy requirements and energy return from reroute.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 10:22:40)

^ Thats is true and a good idea as long as its combined with new featres that make powerbuilds less powerful or at least counterable.




Wootz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 11:15:09)

Turkish,
Blood Mages have two build.
Trans and I made the second, Support one :)



rayniedays56 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 13:29:53)

Has anyone else been tired of seeing ur amazing build be wiped out by n00bish strength builds? :( I had an awesome High Dex, 5 focus, high Support build for my CH and a power hungry BloodMage destroyed me with a Rage Fireball :(



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 14:06:50)

@Wootz

You can do builds , i didnt say classes have 1 build, i mean those builds are only 1 way. With a BM its almost imposible to do a non spam strategic build that class have 8/12 skills related with only direct attacking.

Firebolt-Plasma Canon - Bloodlust - Plasma Rain- Berserker - Overload - Super charge - deadly aim.

you cant use this skills effective at low lvl you neeed to max some of them and spam it to kill ppl. The class is the most non strategic thing i ever seen. This is not about balance its about strategy in classes.



BM-BH-Merc since they dont have energy return they should have usefull skills at low lvls or fixed energy skills.



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 15:26:19)

@rayniedays: Sup is pretty useless. Don't rely on crits.

STR needs a penalty, such as X rage reduction at Y STR.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 16:08:30)

quote:

When I was a tech mage with Level 5 Malfunction and max Deadly Aim I was able to get 70 plus damage with the side arm, the highest was 83. With max Assimilation you can get 40 plus damage and take away 10, 12, or 13, which ever one it is.

This to point out that this is not possible unless you have 165 STR and crit rage and Maf enemy Res down to 2-3
Which is not likely



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 17:04:23)

70+ Sidearm damage = at least:

30->35 damage gun + 10 deadly aim bonuses + 25->30 base strength...

base strength can be compromised with rage/critical hit but even then you need the opponent's resistance to be close to zero. Base strength can range between 15->20 WITH the circumstances of low resistance and luck.

... In other words, a feat achieved for Delta World Records?



Hun Kingq -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 20:19:31)

BlueKatz, I had a balanced 5 focus build with 87 total strength with malfunction and max deadly aim the side arm is a very deadly weapon for the tech mage and a lot of tech mages don't realize that because they are convinced malfunction is useless. Players that met me in 2vs2 and they got malfunctioned they knew they where dead, it was with the frost bite blaster.

Just recently in a 2vs2 match a tech mage put on technician and with max plasma rain with my low tech and with physical armor he only got 44 damage then the support tact merc withe artillery strike without being smoked he got 57 damage and the bounty hunter next to me had max reflex boost on (so much for his protection) and was destroyed so the damage amount between the multis is not the same as someone tried to convince everyone it.

So the multis between the classes need to be balanced out and with as much energy reflex boost uses, it increases dex where defense is 30 or more, and Artillery strike goes through it as it was not there, something is truly wrong with that skill.



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 20:49:52)

quote:

I'm still for making Guns improve with Dex,


+1



OmilliYo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 21:10:28)

Commanders are the worst ( because so frequent ). i can do like about 3 damage to them ( just kidding :P ). well every time i see a commander in 1 vs. 1, well, i had a good life, Rest

In Peace. Heroes, varium and non-varium alike are no problemo, well most of them ( I'm a hero ). warlord variums are difficult for me. Non-variums warlords are a challenge.

Emperiors +, well, i don't want to go there, I'll last about 2 rounds. The most famous and repetitive death of mines is Commander + Massacre level 6^ + Tank Build = no chance for

me. 1.1111111111% . even if i block 10 times. ( exaggerating :P )



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 21:27:46)

Gold can you read my post properly? I said it'd require major change to how Dex works.. And please stop with your CH argument because as soon as they are changed/nerfed, there is nothing bad in the idea.
If you plan to post an idea, please don't say it's bad because it's buff to CH. Balance changes would happen BEFORE the idea was to be thought about. Testing stat that had a major change isn't hours.

It's funny. People suggest idea, read well IDEAS and they get literally shouted at because they are OP'ed. Would you like me going into detailed variables on how this would work, why it would work that way, and what effect of it would be on classes? Surely that's why this topic is pointless, Remorse was right saying all that happenes here is criticising someone else's post and making people feel even worse because it.
Tell me where in this topic, says that MY idea or any idea posted here is going to be implemented asap.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 21:39:39)

@trans
i didn't read ur post (didn't even know who said that) but i did see joe's quote.

either way, gun shouldn't improve with dex.
and sure go into detailed variables.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 21:45:39)

If he quoted someone, surely finding the post would've saved the trouble. Without reasoning but puny argument or CH dominating atm, there's not much to discuss. I didn't say improving with Dex directly either. Read my post to see what I meant.

And I won't go into variables. Do you see me having access to game data, seeing how numbers and formulae work? No.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 22:09:05)

^ I will update my stat effects post from a while ago and we can talk about dexterity affecting guns then.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 22:16:04)

@trans
i read, wanna know what i think?
gun damage improvement is better off with a mix of support and str. (thats right a combo of 2 stats to determine gun damage)
ill throw the details at u.

quote:

18: 4-5
20: 5-6
24: 6-8
28: 7-9
32: 8-10
36: 9-11
40: 10-12
44: 11-14
48: 12-15
52: 13-16
57: 14-17
62: 15-18
67: 16-20
72: 17-21
77: 18-22
82: 19-23
87: 20-24
93: 21-26
99: 22-27
105: 23-28
111: 24-29
117: 25-30
123: 26-32
129: 27-33
135: 28-34
141: 29-35
147: 30-36
153: 31-38
159: 32-39
165: 33-40

as u can see heres the current progression for side arms.
the way it would work is, if ur a pure str build ur gun damage goes down (due to low support)
and if ur a support build, ur gun damage slightly goes up.

after the crazy nerfs on support to me this would only be the fair thing to do to balance them out.

we had field medic not removed from improving with support.
curse effects to lower support added on weapons.
deflections move to technology.
robots released to nullify the use of auxiliary and gun.
and yet another robot to decrease the shields that players cast (most of which work on support)
is there anything i missed?

heres what the progression would look like.

40: 5-6
48: 6-8
56 7-9
64: 8-10
72: 9-11
80: 10-12
88: 11-14
96: 12-15
104: 13-16
112: 14-17
120: 15-18
128: 16-20
136: 17-21
144: 18-22
152: 19-23
160: 20-24
168: 21-26
176: 22-27
184: 23-28
192: 24-29
200: 25-30
208: 26-32
216: 27-33
224: 28-34
232: 29-35
240: 30-36
248: 31-38

now lets say a str TLM has build with 123 str. and about 32 support
with 123 str, his gun damage is 26-32
now with this support/str improvement to gun damage, his gun damage will be 19-23.

now lets use this in support tlm
lets say 123 support. and about 32 str.
with 32 str his gun damage will be 8-10

with the support increase his gun damage goes to 19-23

point of this is, lower gun damage to str builds, increase it to support builds.
nothing too little, nothing too large.



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 22:54:59)

@goldslayer
I support your idea :)
With gun improving with support (and strength too) plus a few buffs to the support stat, we TMs can finally have an extra option of a support build :D



Joe10112 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:05:07)

Ah, but then Guns AND Aux improve with SUP.

It makes WAY more sense for Gun damage to improve with DEX. Literally, how fast you aim and shoot = better damage than pulling the trigger as hard as possible...



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:10:37)

LoL so true ;p



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:11:48)

quote:

Ah, but then Guns AND Aux improve with SUP.

no aux improves with support, gun improves with both support and str.

making gun improve with dex will only promote more tank builds
specialy the focus ones with 31-38 defense and resistance + 9 from armor and 12 from plasma/mineral armor.

huge tanking capabilities, blocking , deflecting., robot damage, and now u want to add gun damage to that?

gun and aux are unblockables but deflects now on tech, support will have a hard time with tech builds.

many people will say its better with dex, this and that. but with current siatuation of how blocking affects so much in this game.
its a really bad choice. and those who support it now and if it later gets implemented they will regret it.

plus, it takes str to hold the gun right.
and support would be ur bullets. (hallow tips, long rounds, magnums, tracers, subsonic, supersonic. did i mention the calibers?)



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