RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 10:54:10)

^ You would be suprised on how little changes like these would actuly make.

For one how would a TLM benefit that much if they only have 1 dex improving skill and they hve a passive phiscal defence to cover dexs defences...

Two how would Mages and CHs get that much of an advantage when both have better skills improving with support...


BUt if the side arms were made to increase with dex like I said a million times.
Dex should increase block only, and increase defence and sidearm.
Strength should increase primary and REDUCE blocks only.
Tech should increase bots, resitance and REDUCE deflects ony.
Support should increase aux,rage,crit,start,reduce stun and INCREASE deflects only.




supermasivo -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 11:28:32)

Totally agreed putting sidearm damage to dex... is the only way to counter those insane sidearm damage coming from STR BM's or anykind of STR build... i think this change could give us ALL a better way to create amazing pvps and not only 2-3 kills fast builds ive seen sometimes... i think 2-3 round kills should totally get erased from this game...
STR MUST to get a nerf urgently...
BATTLES MUST TO GET A LITTLE BIT OF STRATEGY... not only: Smoke- CS - Gun - Mass... etc or fireball - gun (massive damage on nearly 40 def stats or even more) plus berzerker abusing stats...
Now u blame on dex tankers or 5 focus super tankers like my build but is the only way to counter STR build... making blocks, making deflections to stay alive to those massive damage coming to you...
what is the other build i could take to counter STR bm/BH/TLM? making another massive str build in my char too... why? losing all the strategy on it... who wins? the only one that makes more damage... the first to go or the one that get a lucky crit or lucky block... is there any % of strategy here? NO.... JUST: HIT HIT END....
i THINK MORE THAN ONE GONNA AGREE we must to get some good full of strategy long smart battles...



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 11:37:35)

quote:

Totally agreed putting sidearm damage to dex... is the only way to counter those insane sidearm damage coming from STR BM's or anykind of STR build...

so make super tanks more Op than they already are because of bm?

make gun damage be a combination of support and str

ill explain in this quote as i have before.

quote:

quote:

18: 4-5
20: 5-6
24: 6-8
28: 7-9
32: 8-10
36: 9-11
40: 10-12
44: 11-14
48: 12-15
52: 13-16
57: 14-17
62: 15-18
67: 16-20
72: 17-21
77: 18-22
82: 19-23
87: 20-24
93: 21-26
99: 22-27
105: 23-28
111: 24-29
117: 25-30
123: 26-32
129: 27-33
135: 28-34
141: 29-35
147: 30-36
153: 31-38
159: 32-39
165: 33-40

as u can see heres the current progression for side arms.
the way it would work is, if ur a pure str build ur gun damage goes down (due to low support)
and if ur a support build, ur gun damage slightly goes up.

after the crazy nerfs on support to me this would only be the fair thing to do to balance them out.

we had field medic not removed from improving with support.
curse effects to lower support added on weapons.
deflections move to technology.
robots released to nullify the use of auxiliary and gun.
and yet another robot to decrease the shields that players cast (most of which work on support)
is there anything i missed?

heres what the progression would look like.

40: 5-6
48: 6-8
56 7-9
64: 8-10
72: 9-11
80: 10-12
88: 11-14
96: 12-15
104: 13-16
112: 14-17
120: 15-18
128: 16-20
136: 17-21
144: 18-22
152: 19-23
160: 20-24
168: 21-26
176: 22-27
184: 23-28
192: 24-29
200: 25-30
208: 26-32
216: 27-33
224: 28-34
232: 29-35
240: 30-36
248: 31-38

now lets say a str TLM has build with 123 str. and about 32 support
with 123 str, his gun damage is 26-32
now with this support/str improvement to gun damage, his gun damage will be 19-23.

now lets use this in support tlm
lets say 123 support. and about 32 str.
with 32 str his gun damage will be 8-10

with the support increase his gun damage goes to 19-23

point of this is, lower gun damage to str builds, increase it to support builds.
nothing too little, nothing too large.


here do a test,
get a 5 focus build with 31-38 def and resistance, +9 from armor, and + 12 from mineral/plasma (if u got plasma then use phy armor, if u got mineral use energy)
tell me how good that build those from tanking alone. (include heal looping aswell since ur tlm or ch, and with boosters)

and imagine how good it will be when str builds cant do much gun damage with gun, while u deal more.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 11:46:22)

Gold, so having Str builde getting Gun and Primary in one okay? Read posts, we said Dex would need changing itself if it was to happen. No reason to quote walls of text either, link is enough.
Why can't you stop turning people's suggestions into dust and perhaps tell them how to improve? It's not you who has final say on it, let people be.
Cinstructive criticism, eh? Sounds more like trolling. Sorry but you aren't always right with your points either and go on about it. Let people be and give them feedback.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 11:58:39)

@trans
all i see is stuff like
"gun damage to dex +1"
"gun damage to dex is way better"
gun damage to dex this and that.
but i dont see many of them giving details as to HOW it would affect the game.
by class, and builds, aswell as mode.

and saying things like "sidearm damage to dex... is the only way to counter those insane sidearm damage coming from STR BM"
only shows one's rage at a build that he cant counter (which is quite easy)

im not trying to troll.
im just saying if ur gonna make a suggestion like switching gun damage to dex, give UR input on how it would affect the game.(and some numbers)

but so far all i seen is "gun damage to dex" and others band wagon it and use bm as an excuse to do something like this, when str BM is probably one of the worst builds atm due to the deflection change to tech. (when i was BM more than half the time my gun was deflected to ch, mages, and tanks in general.

and any build with 31-38 defense will beat BM.
any tank ch will beat BM with EMPs.

BM damages u, out heal it. once its energy is gone all he will have is gun, and with that measly dex probably half his attacks will be blocked.

would u like me to make a reply at ur gun damage to dex, and point out ALL of ur flaws that just came to my mind?
believe me there are plenty.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 12:08:26)

And you know it'd be bad idea because you magically tested "new Dex working for Guns" already and know it's bad idea? Sure it will affect Tank build but they will get Tech and Dex out of it, perhaps Support which gives them good Gun and Aux - perfectly fine, as their primary will most likely be a lot lower than the rest. Str-abusing builds will lose their unblockable and will have to drop Str to train Dex/Support to get at least one unblockable, thus lowering their Str.

Also give me a lot more examples how it's bad idea? Like different variations of stats, builds, classes, and what if they all fought with each other (different scenarios) and what would the outcome be. Giving me current numbers won't do anything, if Dex was to affect Guns, they would change how Dex works completely. You cannot get free Gun bonus to a stat without suffering a penality - seen Support losing deflection and planned buff for Support?

I'd say drop it here as I won't have any more input on this because people go too far with criticizing ideas. It's not you who has final say on the idea, it's not you who knows how it will affect the game, it's not you who can tell people their idea is not good enough/OP'ed. Constructive feedback that is, not being rude to people like you was 2 pages back.



Wraith -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 12:12:14)

Trans, gimme a scenario in which Tank would not be OP.

Have a nice day :)



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 12:37:37)

Sidearm to dex? Are you serious? Are you trying to make Tank CHs pwn even more? Or make those Multi dex BHs have two hit kill? With their beast multi (because they have over 100 dex) and now with a beast sidearm that will be two hit K.O on some people. So I have to disagree.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 12:57:01)

@trans
first off i wasn't being rude.
u have ur right to ur opinion.
i have my right to criticize, (dont get butt hurt if u under stood what i said wrong, as there was no flame or trolling intended)

quote:

Also give me a lot more examples how it's bad idea? Like different variations of stats, builds, classes, and what if they all fought with each other (different scenarios) and what would the outcome be. Giving me current numbers won't do anything, if Dex was to affect Guns, they would change how Dex works completely. You cannot get free Gun bonus to a stat without suffering a penality - seen Support losing deflection and planned buff for Support?

secondly i dont see u giving that type of info yet u suggest something like that and have people bandwaggon the idea without knowing exactly what it will do.

u want my info on this? fine.

1) Super charge dex tech mage.
has huge dex, power full super charge attack which ignores resistances and regains hp for the mage.
power full gun, ontop of that it has deadly aim to increase gun damage even more.
then it has malfunction to increase energy damage to even higher lvls. mathematically speaking, with that kind of dex compared to the str, the super charge tech mages will be doing about 10-15 more damage than it did before.

and with deflects now on tech, malf reduces enemy chance at deflect, and increase mage's chance

mainly works as a straight forward solo battle build.

2) 31-38 def res +9 physical armor +12 plasma 5 focus super tank CH
these tanks have high dex, high tech, good armor, and max plasma armor.
on top of that it has static charge, giving it a huge energy pool for that amount of tanking, allowing it to constantly heal loop.
high dex, high chances of blocking. also has shadow arts to increase it some more. aswell as poison for more damage output.
and can use a low lvl high effecting EMP due to high tech.

malf also lowers enemy deflect chances and it increase the ch chances of deflecting and alot with this much tech.

this works for all modes, and is a very effective clutch in team battle, aswell as juggetnaut.

NOTE: similar focus builds like these have been proven to be able to solo armored hazard, a gun damage increase would only make them even stronger.

3) super charge bloodmage,
super charge bloodmage would be effective aswell.
has a good finisher, bloodlust to maintain it alive most of the way.
with high dex, increasing gun damage. aswell as deadly aim.
ohh but wait, theres also intimidate to decrease enemy primary damage.
then theres reflex boost to increase dex even MORE.
so big damage, and with bloodlust, while having decent tanking.

mainly works as a straight forward solo battle build.

4) 31-38 def res +9 energy armor. +12 from mineral 5 focus super tank.
has huge tanking, due to the high tech it has a huge smokescreen at low lvls.
has good surgical strike damage. can heal loop, due to smokescreen it can increase his block chances, can decrease enemy connect chance. and overall do more physical damage with smokescreen. it has atom smasher as good energy drainer. and poison as a good damage output. and has bloodshield which is decent and lasts 5 turns.

this works for all modes, and is a very effective clutch in team battle, aswell as juggetnaut.

5) dex multishot CH.
has huge (on average rangers from 136-156 dex)
uses energy armor to compensate for over defense.
has huge blocking, and has malf increase damage for multishot, aswell as decreasging enemy deflect chance and increasing CH deflect chances. has static charge for a large energy pool, and can also heal loop. and also has venom strike for more damage output.

this works for all modes, and is a very effective clutch in team battle, aswell as juggetnaut.

6) dex multishot BH
has huge blocking, also bloodlust for HP regain.
shadow arts to increase blocking even more.
has EMP to counter builds that rely heavily on energy.
and has reflex shield to increase dex and get a 15% energy regain, and multishot damage aswell as block chances, and stun grenade damage.


7) 5 focus dex BH
has high dex, big tanking for its caliber, high block chances. has smokescreen, bloodlust.
and is very versatile using EMP, reflex boost, and energy shield.
also has shadow arts to increase its blocking. aswell as reflex.

this build is good for solo battles, and has also been proven to be a good clutch in team battle.
not sure about juggernaut.

now these builds are all VERY effective right now.
lets assume gun damage goes to deflection.
here would be my list of OPed to less OP.

1) 31-38 def res +9 energy armor. +12 from mineral 5 focus super tank.
2) 31-38 def res +9 physical armor +12 plasma 5 focus super tank CH
3) dex multishot CH.
4) super charge tech mage
5) dex multishot BH
6) super charge bloodmage

why is tlm ontop?
it has smokescreen therefor increasing block chance and lower enemy gun damage.

but on the other side super charge mages cant be easily taken down.
i have bloodmage as lowest because it only has 15% energy gain at the most. and an EMP will destroy them.
hence why tank CH is second. dex multishot BH third.
super charge mage can regain energy tho, therefor allowing it to use shields, stun, heals, and other attacks while still keeping main strategy. and of course, it also has deadly aim.

and bh as 5th because of smokesceen. high dex can make a smokescreen and physical gun pretty deadly, aswell as huge blocking, and decent health regain with bloodlust.

in most cases if ur any of the top 3 types of builds, and u happen to go first, recommended move is to use a energy drainer on any build that requires alot of energy to stay performing well. (like super charge builds)

i could add a couple more paragraph if u want.
but since ur making big suggestions like these i dont think i need to explain more to someone who should already be experienced.


and once again, a friendly reminder.
there is no insult ,flame, or troll attempt in this post.
(the fact that i even have to remind u is more of an insult to me, if that makes u feel any better)

quote:

it's not you who knows how it will affect the game

no maybe not 100%. but i surely know more than u on how it would affect the game because im not the one suggesting this. [;)]

btw
quote:

it's not you who can tell people their idea is not good enough/OP'ed.

ur idea isn't good.
and i just backed it up with like 8 paragraph of facts. [;)]



added a #7. forgot to add 5 focus dex BH.



TurkishIncubus -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 13:53:29)

Gun scale with dex is very bad idea that will lead very OP builds. Especially TM

If that happen that will be very bad for balance but i like using OP builds so [:D] i dont care much.

You should see if dex increase gun dmg, dex will also increase defense and blocking. So other builds will not have any option to win. Like a str build will fail because of blocks and a 5 focus build also will fail because of robot block.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:15:45)

Gold, you don't realize just how much you dedicated your post to trolling.

Take it from me.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:17:23)

@gold Couldn't agree more. You sir have provided concrete facts. @Void How on earth is he trolling? He is just laying down the facts.



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:20:36)

How on Delta V sir, how on Delta V.

Your post is irrelevant, "ur idea isn't good". [;)]

That's one tiddlywink of the whole post. See what I see?

EDIT: You know what I don't see? A single line of comment encouraging or appreciating the DAMN THOUGHT.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:22:16)

@Void He proved Trans wrong with concrete facts and constructive criticism. How is he trolling?



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:23:52)

@depressed
i am entitled to my opinion.
he suggested gun damage be moved to dex.
and i said thats a bad suggestion.
i provided like 8 paragraphs of concrete facts (could have been more) as to why its bad, while he gave little info as to how his suggestion could be good. if anyone is trolling its trans by suggesting things like this and giving little insight on it. aswell as accusing me of trolling.

@isaia
gun damage to dex is a nono, something we seem to agree on [;)]



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:25:13)

To be honest here, no way would I back an argument using solely imaginary scenarios. He didn't even take into account energy, and how much skills would cost.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:34:57)

@depressed
that depends on ur build.
for example, tank tlm will probably use lvl 1-3 smokescreen.
and lvl 4-5 field medic. while having side skills like atom smasher, and stun grenade.

as for supper charge, that depends on the lvl of super charge.
but mage has reroute so it can count on a little less base energy.

and tank ch, it has better energy pool than tlm IMO, and with static, u can keep ur base energy at 47 and do alot of things.

as for focus dex bh.
bh will probably keep 45-53 energy.
while having EMP, reflex, and energy shield cost around the same energy so they can use either one (or combo of 2) 3-4 times. in a match.

dex ch also has static, once again energy can stay a 47 base. and just use static to keep regaining.

and dex BH, will depend on ur battle mode.
for team battle it will probably be better if u took like 100 energy.
same for jugger.
while for solo u can use it well at around 70-80 energy.

do i need to keep explaining more?



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:42:13)

quote:

as for supper charge, that depends on the lvl of super charge.
but mage has reroute so it can count on a little less base energy.
So wrong here dude, I know you have use SC builds but not at their maximum power, a lvl 5 malf and a lvl 8 SC requires a heck of energy and you must have leftover energy so that you can heal/buff up if they crit/deflect/massacre whatever that deals high damage. I allocated 21 stat points on energy and they aren't few.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:46:22)

quote:

So wrong here dude, I know you have use SC builds but not at their maximum power, a lvl 5 malf and a lvl 8 SC requires a heck of energy and you must have leftover energy so that you can heal/buff up if they crit/deflect/massacre whatever that deals high damage. I allocated 21 stat points on energy and they aren't few.

that depends on how ur build is going to be.

for example my field medic was lvl 1, i had no good use for it. a better use would have been defense matrix, or a higher deadly aim. (or reroute) which turned out better in the long run.

i had a 68 energy build with lvl 4 malf
but i had change it due to sometimes not recieving energy when fighting NPCs.
so i bumped it to 76 and took the advantage of being able to use other things along with it.
one of them being a technician which was good for the amount of dex i had. and it came very handy when fighting cyber hunters.

also, if they crit why would u use a buff?



Stabilis -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:46:38)

If you want to, explain why you went from an aggressive POV to an arbitrary, neutral POV.

And for one point, "super charge BM" wouldn't be reliable, even if dex improved guns.

•High dex or high str, choose one, the Primary or Sidearm suffers accordingly

•Requires ludicrous storage of energy, anything that saps the energy deposit will render super charge useless... BM does not regain energy.

•The luck that comes with blocking is unreliable, and how about defending from energy attacks?

Was a BM for a month, super charge is better for TM.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:53:17)


quote:

•High dex or high str, choose one, the Primary or Sidearm suffers accordingly

obviously its a dex build, str isn't involved.

quote:

•Requires ludicrous storage of energy, anything that saps the energy deposit will render super charge useless... BM does not regain energy.
yeah obviously enough for a super charge and then another skill.
and thank u for pointing out the obvious and something that i also already pointed out about any build where energy is the biggest influence.

quote:

•The luck that comes with blocking is unreliable, and how about defending from energy attacks?

well BM had technician back then, with high dex and technician it made a good combo. (came handy as tech mage) but for BM it was replace with energy shield. which is still somewhat good.

Was a BM for a month, super charge is better for TM.
super charge is better for tech mage, but i have seen good super charge bloodmages.
idk about now as of the recent balance update where CH gets plasma armor.
but super charge BM was strategically capable.



DeathGuard -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:53:21)

quote:

i had a 68 energy build with lvl 4 malf
but i had change it due to sometimes not recieving energy when fighting NPCs.
so i bumped it to 76 and took the advantage of being able to use other things along with it.
one of them being a technician which was good for the amount of dex i had. and it came very handy when fighting cyber hunters.

also, if they crit why would u use a buff?
You understood wrong, let me explain you
quote:

you must have leftover energy so that you can heal/buff up if they crit/deflect/massacre whatever that deals high damage.
I should have clarify but use buff when they smoke/malf, because some players like me lack of assault bot.


quote:

that depends on how ur build is going to be.
I agree but most TM that use SC builds use to 7-10 skill points in SC and a huge mass of energy, have you meet a nonvarium called no fear? well he has a supercharge build that has 110 hp and 90 energy, you would think it sucks if you heard that but his build is actually really good, it would be good if you fight him, if you already did, then you can understand what I mean.



XxKirachanXx -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:54:12)

Gun damage on dex would make those CHs you see 6 out of 10 battles with 120+dex virtual gods...
31+defense and I don't even want to imagine how much they could do with the dark varium blaster.
It should stay on strength, otherwise, who on earth would even bother investing anything in strength?
And as much of a cluster as support is, I would rather see sidearm damage there than on dex, how many do you see abuse support anymore?



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 14:57:29)

@kirachan
yeah support may seem cluster, but it was a cluster of small things.

with all of the things released now. its become heavily UP.

read my suggestion for gun damage, quoted below this.


quote:

quote:

18: 4-5
20: 5-6
24: 6-8
28: 7-9
32: 8-10
36: 9-11
40: 10-12
44: 11-14
48: 12-15
52: 13-16
57: 14-17
62: 15-18
67: 16-20
72: 17-21
77: 18-22
82: 19-23
87: 20-24
93: 21-26
99: 22-27
105: 23-28
111: 24-29
117: 25-30
123: 26-32
129: 27-33
135: 28-34
141: 29-35
147: 30-36
153: 31-38
159: 32-39
165: 33-40

as u can see heres the current progression for side arms.
the way it would work is, if ur a pure str build ur gun damage goes down (due to low support)
and if ur a support build, ur gun damage slightly goes up.

after the crazy nerfs on support to me this would only be the fair thing to do to balance them out.

we had field medic not removed from improving with support.
curse effects to lower support added on weapons.
deflections move to technology.
robots released to nullify the use of auxiliary and gun.
and yet another robot to decrease the shields that players cast (most of which work on support)
is there anything i missed?

heres what the progression would look like.

40: 5-6
48: 6-8
56 7-9
64: 8-10
72: 9-11
80: 10-12
88: 11-14
96: 12-15
104: 13-16
112: 14-17
120: 15-18
128: 16-20
136: 17-21
144: 18-22
152: 19-23
160: 20-24
168: 21-26
176: 22-27
184: 23-28
192: 24-29
200: 25-30
208: 26-32
216: 27-33
224: 28-34
232: 29-35
240: 30-36
248: 31-38

now lets say a str BM has build with 123 str. and about 32 support
with 123 str, his gun damage is 26-32
now with this support/str improvement to gun damage, his gun damage will be 19-23.

now lets use this in support tech mage
lets say 123 support. and about 32 str.
with 32 str his gun damage will be 8-10

with the support increase his gun damage goes to 19-23

point of this is, lower gun damage to str builds, increase it to support builds.
nothing too little, nothing too large.

and tell me what u think.



IsaiahtheMage -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 15:09:07)

@Kirachan Finally someone else who understands. Also I say I see about 1 out of every 20 battles. @goldslayer That could work but I think it would be better if they just buffed support back to their former glory.



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