RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:23:37)

What about a new stat called Precision that improves gun/aux dmg damage, hit chance, and crit chance as well and also decreases deflection chance? :3 OP



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:27:41)

@aqw
precison as a passive may sound better.
increases hit chance for all skills (up to 10%)
and by passes the 4% minimum block chances.
also has a 10% stun resistance at max.

precision would be the anti shadow arts. (or opposite whatever u wanna call it)



AQWPlayer -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:41:55)

The stun resistance part makes no sense :/
What about decreasing your chances to be deflected instead?
BTW, which class should it be for?



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/13/2012 23:48:08)

quote:

The stun resistance part makes no sense :/
What about decreasing your chances to be deflected instead?
BTW, which class should it be for?

well it cant be any of the hunters.
cause they got shadow arts already.

i would say give it to bloodmage and/or merc.

and the stun increase part makes no sense for shadow arts lol.



RAB -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 0:36:11)

I rarely post on any threads and I know for a fact that I'm super late, but I thought I'd say some of my opinions, I'm a bit bored lol.

Anyway, CHs are definitely OPed. Being able to tank with low support and low strength and still able to do good damage, due to multi shot, which improves with dexterity, using shadow arts to increase their block chance, and using static charge to gain energy is insane. They're able to gain probably around 60 mana per battle, being able to outlast you for a long period of time and being able to do tons of damage, while your opponent barely deals damage, is a bit much.

Compared to CH, mage might be a bit under powered but TM is a pretty balanced class, along with BH, i love both classes.

TLM is still a bit over powered even after all the nerfs. I think maybe it needs some kind of skill tree arrangement. Reroute, Smoke, and Frenzy, I believe, are the three main skills that makes them OPed, since they can easily be used for any build.

I do have a problem with most of the BMs, especially the strength ones. Lots of strength with a high level deadly aim is....well....deadly. (no pun intended)

Mercenary is a bit under powered. Bloodshield is a useless skill for them in my opinion, It works alot better on TLM. Mercenary still isn't a bad class though, I'm using it at the moment and I'm doing fine.

Now as for stats, support had WAY too many perks, reduces stun chance, increases aux damage, increases critical chance, increases rage gain, and increases deflection chance. (correct me if I'm wrong)
I think the deflection chance should be moved over to dexterity. Logically If your dexterity is low you wouldn't be able to aim well, meaning a higher chance of your gun or aux getting dodged(deflected), at least I think that's how it works. XD

One final thing, It isn't the classes that are over powered alone, It's alot of the players that go out of their ways, making all of these insane builds, only wanting to win all of the time. In my opinion, I think the reason all of these nerfs, that alot of you guys don't like, keep happening, is because these stats and class are being abused for over poweredness (If that's even a word, If it isn't.....IT IS NOW!)

From what I just said, I'd like to know what you guys think. :)







BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 2:07:35)

To be honest I still prefer making Gun damage improve with Dex, it makes a lot more sense. Also I dislike how Dex being the only defensive stat.
People just overreacting about Block but in fact Dex is still the weakest stat overall (since Support will get a buff)

>.> why can't we just put decay on % Effect like Block, Crit anyways >.>



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 2:27:37)

i think people suggesting gun damage be improved by dex aren't seeing the long term effects for builds and classes.

today i had a fight against a tlm super tank.
31-38 def +12
31-38 res +9 lvl 6 field medic.

his build and strategy was very rubbish.
yet after a 30 something round fight he still wins.
while i massacre him twice, did malf like 4 times had more hp than him, and more energy pool than him.

how did he win? pure tanking and robot spamming.
i got lucky that he didn't do more than 1 deflect and only blocked once.

but with the tech he had he could have easily deflected 6 times. plus i also stunned him once with stun gun.

in the end he has like 70 hp left while he kills me off with robot.

so do u think it would have been fair for that super tank to have even more damage on me?

how does it make more sense to give a pure tank like that more power?

with that tech, he has a huge smoke to increase his block rate, and also has a big surgical strike.
and if he wanted to, he could have added poison in for more damage.

dont even get me started with ch.

ch will be a deflect nut case with malf and multishot.

it can go 2 ways.
energy armor with decent tech and like 146 dex. as a pure multishot build.
or a 31-38 def/res focus build that can heal loop.

honestly i wonder what people think when they make those kinds of suggestions.



Minus123 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 2:52:10)

@RAB
But moving deflection over to dex would make dex CH's even more op. You already said that they do decent damage due to multi shot, so being able to deflect on rages and crits would make them even harder to take down.

Support was fine the way it was, since your main source of damage is your aux, which has a 3 turn cool down.




Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:30:19)

@ Goldslayer.

I agree tanks can use effortless winning builds thus I would classify it as a powerbuild in my undertsanding as I classify powerbuilds as build that either force the player to play defeively or to either deal extreme dmagae, to a high extent be others are unable to use staretgy counters and usally heavily influenced by luck they are also easy to use.


This does describe the tank you described earlier.
So I agree with you that when you think about trying to fix the powerbuilds you must also think of the tank versions.

BUT both these builds have something in common.
They both use lacking of non rage giving turns apart from heal the exception.
And they both deal heavy output.

Which is why My sugested feature Meditation would help because it will provdide a benefit for NOT using rage giving moves and for Not deal high constant damage, As long as you dont have extreme defences.
It will sort of give non power builds a chance to use strategy effectively again. Like you siad before using 2 masacres etc on a player would prberly considered quite unique and thought out strategy it can be very frusterating when someone effrotlessy wins on top of that regardless of luck.

Remorse Less.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:33:38)

@Remorse
i read ur suggestion on meditation and i can tell u this.
it sounds nice, but chances are its probably really hard to code for the team. (if even possible)

also at this point anything can be called a "power build" because there never was anything else.
unless u spread ur stats equally to all stats. and skill points to every skill in ur tree.

there always been "power builds" since day, to classify any build or class as "powerbuild" doesn't seem right or its exaggeration.

if we were to classify what builds were "power builds" tanks, str, dex, tech, support,

heal loop
3 super charge hit mage.
massacre str bh.
str merc
caster mage.
BB merc.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:36:48)

^ It cant be much harder then rage.

Only diffrence is the meditation bar is filled up diffrently (comparing the rage calculations meditation is alot simpler)
And the actul effect which is a bonus non rage giving turn in what would of normally been an attack or ragegiving turn.
I admit it may take some balance testing but It should be really worth it considering it solves many issues in one.
The hardest part would be making the player get the extra turn but I cant imagine it being much more difficult then a stun.

Considring titan implemented rage by himself (At least I think so)
And now they have 2 coders.

Plus its not like this wouldnt be worth it, it doesnt just help balance.

It also helps undeserving luck,blocks, Stuns, SKIPPED TURNS, etc.

BTW. thanks for liking my sugestion.

Remorse Less.

EDIT:
Yes there has always been power builds though I would not classify most older builds that because back then most were easily counterable WITHOUT luck.
Heal loopers it was well timed energy drains.
Most old STR build could be beatin effectively with sheilds but now enhacements enforced power makes them have often equally higher defnces yet they build rage ALOT faster.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:42:25)

@rage
yeah except rage is based on damage u DONT do.
for example if i can deal 50 damage when u have 0 defense
and then when u have defense i deal, lets say 15 damage.
i would get +35% rage.

but from what i understood from ur thread, is that if i get blocked i would get a meditation bar for blocks and then when its full i would have an unblock able rage like attack. (an unblockable attack or a guaranteed block after bar is full.) thats what i understood.



huuduy1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:51:15)

JESUS i'm really tired of DEFLECTION. EVERY times ivs with Cyber or Tech mage .... i got atleast .... 2 deflection from them. I have experienced about deflection. Support is more better than Deflection because not many people can decrease Support ( delta weapon RARE ). And if you get Deflection by support. You won't feel depress because they are lucky enough. But when Deflection is work on Tech. Most people made a complaint to Epicduel.
P/s : I'm strongly sure that move back Deflection to SUPPORT is a GOOD IDEA for most player in EPICDUEL.
TO MAKE A FAIR GAMES. Please make a vote before something big happen in the newest update



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 3:53:33)

@Gold, No it goes like this.

You get blocked or you use a non rage giving turn you get a certain EXACTLY the same set amount of meditiaon for those example is 25% meditation bar there are excpetions such as not starting or getting stunned or skipped turns which give higher then 25% meditation.


It works like this.

You get a Full meditation bar and you decide to use it that turn (as in you dont use an attack, for rage delaying it is using a nonattack)
So in other words you have a full meditation bar and you either: Buff, sheilds, boost, heal, energy drain (apart from asim), then you get an attack turn straight after in the same turn.
OR! ( for those who dont use many non rage giving turns)
There is ONE exception if you get blocked and you have a full meditaion bar you will get you turn back again (and use all of your meditiaon bar up automatically) BUT you dont get any energy back and you dont gain a warmup and it is an exactly normal turn no damage bonus and no gaurente hits. (you could be blcoked twice in a row in the same turn).








goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 4:00:34)

@remorse
ahh ok.
i see what u mean.
this should help alot in team mode and jugger when a player is alone fighting 2 players.



Remorse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 4:08:44)

^ Exaclty and in many cases that extra help is well deserved for instance you get blocked in jugger. it can be fatal.

It minimises luck and genreates strategy waht more could you want xD

If you however dont use any nonrage giving turns then the main bonus you will get is a get out of free block xD.
Well atleast until you fill the bar again

It also gives a 50% meditation bonus to the person who is second.
So the second player is MUCH more liekly to get meditation quicker therefore more likely to copnesate for not starting BUT any other type of compensation would be likely to throw out balance because its only an extra non rage giving turn or a free get out of block, usally it will make up for the turn enforced when you are second. eg. usally when you second you have to sheild because they get the debuff in first, BUT this means you be one step cloer to meditating therefore getting an extra non rage turn like heal in with an attack to make up for the lost turn before hand.




Darkwing -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 4:46:01)

How to stop stat abuse: Penalties. Works like agility. This will stop tanks and strength abusers.

For example: 80-90 strength..... -1 to primary damage/gun OR -1 to def/res
90-100 strength.... - 2 to primary damage/ gun OR -2 def/res

80-90 dexterity........ -1 to primary damage/gun OR -1 to def/res





drinde -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 4:47:41)

^
Idea stealing much? xD

But Agility on Stats is still something I support.



goldslayer1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 4:53:25)

quote:

How to stop stat abuse: Penalties. Works like agility. This will stop tanks and strength abusers.

For example: 80-90 strength..... -1 to primary damage/gun OR -1 to def/res
90-100 strength.... - 2 to primary damage/ gun OR -2 def/res

80-90 dexterity........ -1 to primary damage/gun OR -1 to def/res

agility wasn't even suppose to be ingame.
even the staff have said that agility is more of a band aid for some problems.
which eventually should come off. putting agility on stats will not solve any of the issues.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 9:34:08)

Well, I'm still with my idea. Get Gun damage for DEX, improve Rage to balance Tank builds, double shot TEC and doesn't need to buff Sup while STR being equal



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 9:53:42)

No point saying it BlueKatz, it will be shouted at because it'll make builds OP'ed without actual testing and further changes to Dex. Surely if Dex was to improve Guns, its blocking abilities would be reduced because stat would be itself too strong. I wrote almost essay-length ideas few pages back, was ignored by everyone but Remorse who bothered to read it and suggested his Meditation idea.
Surely Meditation might not be great solution but it doesn't say we create the balance, we can give ideas on how to improve it and it's up to the Staff if they use it and how they will balance it out to be fair for everyone.

Is there a point posting here? There are few people who actually bother with suggesting great ideas and solutions (ideas =/= will be used) but some just turn their suggestion against them by using CH argument of making them OP'ed. Funnily it wouldn't make any other class OP'ed but CH so doesn't that mean CHs are only problem with it then? Rather than strongly criticize someone else's idea completly; say it's bad, wrong, OP'ed, etc., perhaps read it and post feedback on it if it could work or how it can be changed to make it better? All that happens here is shouting at each other, seems like only Staff reads the suggestions from players and members of our community ignore it and post same thing again, shout at others, etc.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 9:59:35)

Umm it appears that no one actually can prove their theory, with proof or not >.> (At least I provide good numbers)
I really think they should make a PTR server, from what I know about coding, different server can contain diff code, so we can just disable ranking there and test load of things, also nice place to hang out



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 10:07:49)

Something like AQW did with PvP testing?
It could be good if it was our characters with defaul equipment (so normal weapons, no enhancements unless for testing purposes, etc) and test balance changes that would be put on that test server and we could give feedback on it, if it's strong/weak and what could be changed for better.



BlueKatz -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 10:13:03)

Something like that
I was thinking about Starcraft 2 PTR though. They just announce a balance change, "over nerf/buff" something then tweak it after PTR then put it in game. That's how thing normally work

I still can't believe how CH was being that carelessly tested >.>



huuduy1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion Thread (2/14/2012 10:41:15)

If gun damage = dex. TLM will be strongest class
If deflect = tech. Tech mage and Cyber are the best



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