RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (Full Version)

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{|Draco|} -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/29/2014 23:38:12)

I agree with Deviance. The entire Paladin-thing in the Battleon Games seems to point to a specific order of powerful knights attached to the element of light. However, I think that the element-lock is a nice idea, but I think that overall the class should resemble more of a defensive tank-like class, rather than a light-reliant offensive. A nice defensive or tank class would give the Paladin some versatility in use, regardless of light-locked or not. I do think that the left side of abilities should be redone or completely replaced.



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 0:57:04)

The non-da skills of Paladin need some major adjustments. The only ones I do like are the ones that heal. The rest are nothing more than a glorified attack button. This is rather annoying. I mean, 20% to do something seems rather foolish. The stun skill should have a higher chance to stun. The blind skill should have a high chance to blind opponents. It just seems like people who don't have a Dragon Amulet aren't gonna enjoy this class much. It's just an entire left side full of the same skill basically and if you're lucky, maybe you'll get some decent effect off. I hope the revamp of this class fixes these issues.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 3:20:38)

I might be wrong here since Dracelix seems to have thought up lots of lore we're not yet privy to, but from all we currently know of DF's Paladin lore, they have no overarching affiliation to Light. Artix says that there are many different types of Paladins, with the common thread simply being that they're warriors of good, love and faith, who protect people and thwart evil. However, Artix is the one who trains us, and his own specialty is a dedication to destroying the undead and an understandable prejudice towards creatures of Darkness given his experiences. So really, whether the class should thematically be Light-locked seems to depend on Artix's training methods (whether he trains us as a more general Paladin or as a disciple of his own philosophy), and I see no story or theme problems either way.



Faerdin -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 3:37:18)

There is every possibility that Paladins may work differently in DragonFable than they do in AdventureQuest, for example, but never has there been a Paladin any in Artix Entertainment game to ever receive their power from any source other than Light Magic. This combined with the historical background of the Paladin as a religious or faith-driven character (Therefore being given Light Magic) gives the impression that they only ever use the Light.

Whether there are exceptions to this remains to be seen. Should a non-Light Paladin ever turn up, it would be intriguing to hear why they went in a different direction.

@Draco: That would be interesting. Paladin does have one of the most reliable healing spells in the game, after all. :)
@below: Fire is the only other element I could see Paladins having sway over, but in a limited sense due to the significance of fire in scripture and subsequent inspiration of other common Paladin abilities like "Divine Fire" or something to that effect.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 3:42:13)

Paladins in Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced and its sequel have a Fire ability.

Of course that ability is blowing themselves up and hoping to take adjacent enemies with them.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 5:53:08)

@Faerdin, Paladins are stereotypically knights of religion as you said, but since DF's pantheon is essentially the 8 prime elements (and Zeuster), I see no reason to assume that Light is the only one which could or would be venerated by warriors of faith, nor do I see why a non-Light Paladin would need to explain themselves... But, again, Dracelix seems to have thought up lore on the Paladin Order that we're not aware of, so obviously I could be wrong.

And in regards to your Fire comment, I don't see how anything real-life scripture said to inspire the idea of Paladins is relevant, considering DF's setting does not have real-world religions...



Faerdin -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 6:19:06)

An explanation would be helpful because the way of the Light has been the norm for AE Paladins, and most (If not all) Paladins in fantasy.

As far as we know, the Paladins do not treat the elements like gods of D&D where a Paladin could pick any deity that prioritizes order in some sense. The Light is just their way.

I could always be wrong. But Artix's comment is the only reason we really have for believing otherwise. Dx

As for my comment about Fire, DragonFable does not need to refer directly to religion in real life to draw upon the common Paladin fantasy tropes. The tropes are what have been inspired by religion and they may be treated as fundamental aspects of the Paladin. No one needs to know that fire is religiously associated with the presence of divinity or "purging" when casting a spell like "Divine Fire." It is just a common element that fantasy interpretations of Paladin have used again and again, like chivalrous behavior and protection of the innocent, if that makes sense.



Dwelling Dragonlord -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 6:55:48)

This is what is confirmed about Paladins in-game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=10596899

And I, as a Paladin wanted to take it back to the Temple.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://forums2.battleon.com/f/tm.asp?m=21430644

Dracelix: We have many new recruits, eager to serve in the Light.


It is mentioned that they serve the Temple. Now, only two elemental temples have been confirmed to exist. One being the Temple of the Four Winds with the other one being the Light Temple we know Lady Celestia was part of, the very same person who raised and trained Artix.

That is all what is known about Paladins in Dragonfable on the subject of elemental allegiance. Most of my knowledge on them is from AdventureQuest where they are an order of warriors in service of the Light named after their founder.* As such elemental counterparts may exist, but they just wouldn't be called Paladins.

*Commander Paladin.



Mordred -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 9:05:59)

quote:

Ash @AshendalAE
I'm confused on how some people define a "Paladin" now after reading the class thread. If you don't like a few light locked skills...well...


There's staff confirmation that it has ties to Light, and that there will definitely be Light-locked skills.



cenarius345 -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (8/30/2014 11:23:32)

Nobody has said, as far as I can tell, that it shouldn't have any light-locked skills. Only that they need some non-locked offensive abilities. And honestly, there is not a single logical argument against meeting on the middle ground like that. It makes the class balanced against both standard enemies and light-resistant enemies, and it fits with most standard definitions of what a Paladin is (for instance, D&D paladins are primarily martial fighters who buff themselves and others, who don't get any magic until at least level 4, and real-life paladins, regardless of religion, most certainly did not have magical powers of any kind). I can understand both sides of your argument, Mordred, because as a roleplayer myself I definitely want the class to be strongly Light-aligned and even alignment-locked. But I can also understand the people who don't give half a zard's tail about any of that and just feel like they shouldn't be "forced" to change their class in order to do a quest or fight a boss that has a moderate or strong Light resistance.

As far as I know, DF's resistances are straight % reduction, and so fighting an enemy with even 20 or 30 Light resist (rather than 100 or 200) will make your fight take about 25% longer, and that's enough to make a lot of people just outright ignore the class. Even back when it was released, a lot of people stopped using it outside of Doomwood because it just isn't worth it to cripple yourself by fighting against the same element or, in turn, not being able to take advantage of a negative element, which is something else to keep in mind. It's not uncommon for me to swap weapons (in some quests) almost every other fight to take advantage of negative resists. An element-locked class can't do that, and suffers for it in comparison to any non-locked class. It works for things like Kathool and Frostreaver, because those are specialized "inventory" classes that you -can- swap out easily for just one quest, and Frostreaver in particular has a strong ice resist debuff. (Dear god does he mesh well with Aegis.) If that's the way they want to go with it, like Hopeful suggested, that could possibly work out, and I'd be interested to see it. But otherwise, they need at least a few of their abilities to be more versatile.



Lord Ferno -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 14:06:02)

Actually I have a brilliant compromise! How about some of the skills be light locked only if light is the best element of choice. So basically if needed the skills are light locked and if not then they use the element of your weapon.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 14:20:08)

You will have light locked skills. No, "if light is the best element then it is" no "well none are locked because locking a class isn't good". You will have light locked skills.

I can't EVER stress this enough.

A. The skills for Pally and DeathKnight are DONE. They are complete. You can speculate all you want but they aren't getting adjusted at all until the preview comes out and I get feedback. Some of you are way off on the effects and some are pretty close.
B. Some of the animations are flashes of light. They wouldn't be doing darkness damage. I'm not going to break the thematic's of the class because it's not "perfect" everywhere or to everyone to be doing light locked damage. If you were just swinging your weapon I wouldn't lock it. If you summoning bright flashes of LIGHT MAGIC to damage your enemy I'm not going to let you deal anything but light with it.
C. It's GOING to have ways to make up for the fact that it's light locked. I'm not going to toss you out there with NO way to get around that.

For what feels like the hundredth time because people keep jumping all over the place. Wait until a class is out to preview before you go nuts and looking to find problems.



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 14:35:21)

Well at least there's some clarification now. Thanks Ash.



Edorath -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 14:38:30)

Will Paladin have new animations? Or at least a new attack animation? The jump slash animation is both weird and unwise, an attack like that leaves an opening for your enemy to strike.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 18:10:10)

How many of those abilities are Light-locked?

11/14 abilities being Light-locked is terrible no matter how you spin it.



Caststarter -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 18:41:12)

I went and checked and Icebound Revenant, a DC class keep in mind, has about 9 skills that are the element of Ice, and yet it is considered to be a rather formidable class. Having skills that are element-locked is not a terrible idea as long it is done correctly, which is not hard to do. The effects of Paladin's new skill-set will determine how well it performs and due to the example made by Icebount Revenant, Paladin is most likely ingood hands. The big reason why people did not like Paladin is the fact that almost half of it's skills are based on chance where besides not making sense from a thematic stand-point, on a gameplay stand-point it does not really work all that well, not because it had light-locked skills.

Since it is most likely that the left side of skills have been reworked considerably, Paladin will most likely be extremely effective against Darkness enemies, while it can still hold its own against normal enemies, and have a chance to be somewhat effective against light-resistant enemies, as long as the player plays their cards right.



Ash -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 19:19:56)

quote:

Will Paladin have new animations? Or at least a new attack animation? The jump slash animation is both weird and unwise, an attack like that leaves an opening for your enemy to strike.

I can see about picking a different base attack animation from what's already in the file but no, I can't add new things. What is there is what you're going to get unless Tomix really goes overboard. Since he didn't on Necromancer he's most likely not going to on Pally.

quote:

How many of those abilities are Light-locked?

11/14 abilities being Light-locked is terrible no matter how you spin it.


There's a grand total of THREE Light locked attacks and ONE that's locked to a different element. The skill that nerfs enemy light resistance is on the Non-DA side so there should be absolutely no complaining about the number of light locked skills or how things are played out.

Stop. Worrying. About. What. Is. Going. On. With. The. Revamps. Before. They. Come. Out.

I'm just going to start copying and pasting that from now on if people keep perseverating. Wait till the thing comes out, try it, and THEN make judgements. THEN you can complain. THEN you can see if it lives up to expectations or not. I'm going to start ignoring all posts that ask things like that simply because you all ignore me when I go, "Just wait and see. It'll all work out." Just wait and see from now on. Speculate all you want but seriously stop trying to make things horrible before they come out. That just sets it up to be bad in your mind before you ever see it and then nothing good about the class will make it ok to you.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 19:38:05)

If you said how many abilities were Light-locked earlier, sorry if I didn't see it then.

If Paladin had been good or at least decent from the start, maybe there'd be a little less forboding about it. No one is saying it's going to be bad as your track record with the revamps is pretty spotless at this point as far as I can tell.

It's not like Paladin is or was Dragonslayer-tier bad where it can only get better from where it is. In theory, at least.



shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 19:51:56)

Ash: I think people complain simply because the old armor is well extremely heavily locked. IF no one had info on that only from what you've said is 3, are locked which is more than fine I actually figured roughly 5 might be locked. They will continue to do so because they don't have info to tell them otherwise, it's like our current dragon slayer, it's a nifty niche armor...But even in it's niche others can generally out-do the armor with a few combos.

That all aside, i'm really not only glad my class thread ideas took to life, but now they have gotten you guys to look at the armors and update them to better standards of play for that by all means thank you very much. I'm highly curious to see how the new skills will work out, might even drop DmK once in awhile just to go play around in them if they are fun enough.



Azan -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 19:56:25)

Three Light locked attacks? I was honestly expecting more. Seems very good. I'm guessing the other element-locked attack is Good because paladins mostly are goodies-two-shoes.



Aura Knight -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 21:28:59)

I wonder what the class base weapon is now? It'd be cool if it were a hammer of some sort. Most paladins in other games carry giant hammers.



Sothe -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/1/2014 21:49:33)

I think the class will be amazing regardless.......the point of having many different classes is to have diversity, to choose what class is best for what situation. Light isn't going to be used ALL the time >.> Jeez.

PS: I love Ash when he responds to people whining over things they can't change/dont matter xD



flashbang -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/2/2014 15:23:56)

quote:

There's a grand total of THREE Light locked attacks and ONE that's locked to a different element. The skill that nerfs enemy light resistance is on the Non-DA side so there should be absolutely no complaining about the number of light locked skills or how things are played out.


I was expecting like half of the skills to be light locked. But Ash, this is awesome. Thanks for clarification. :3



Chaosweaver Amon -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/2/2014 16:14:10)

quote:

I'm guessing the other element-locked attack is Good because paladins mostly are goodies-two-shoes.


Either that, or perhaps silver? I feel like that could fit the 'warrior of light' theme.



NagisaXIkari -> RE: =DF= Paladin Armor Discussion Thread (9/2/2014 17:07:39)

Good seems more likely and would be marginally more useful unless there's a sudden influx of Werewolves and/or other weak to Silver enemies.



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