RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (Full Version)

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Lanxy -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 9:42:58)

Some Bugs or etc.
the setting icon on lower bar where options are is really BIG in my opinion.
where lever (75 for me) in full screen (16:9) is kinda not in the center in bubble, it's more to the right...




megakyle777 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 9:54:12)

Hey Ash, I noted that you said a Beastmaster style playstyle was possible. I was just wondering how the best way to go about it as a Dragonlord would be really. As you have doubtless seen from my many posts about DragonLord and Dragons and stuff, I was curious as to how a good Beastmaster style would be since I wish to use my dragon a lot more with this update.

Oh, and in regards to the comment I made about Dragonlord/Dragon synergy, I was thinking more along the lines of the skills of both complementing each other to make both more powerful rather then a passive, like for a unintentional example how a DOT from the dragon can allow you to use the final DL skill. I'm not sure if that would be harder or easier. Though such a passive'd be nice too.[:D]




Verlyrus -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 9:56:25)

quote:

Oh, and in regards to the comment I made about Dragonlord/Dragon synergy, I was thinking more along the lines of the skills of both complementing each other to make both more powerful rather then a passive, like for a unintentional example how a DOT from the dragon can allow you to use the final DL skill.



This is something we can certainly look into in the future, but we do not have plans right now for this.




AugustoCP -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 10:06:43)

But Ash, the whole point of adding points to WIS was so I COULD finish quests (or at least ones with no boss) with 100% mana. My point is, a defensive, perpetual build with Chrono should be viable, but, right now, it isn't. Potions don't count, for obvious reasons, unless you're using DmK, and healing pads aren't reliable either. Even if they were made reliable, by adding one to every single quest, that would beat the point of this overhaul.




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 10:08:45)

That's a personal limitation put on the game by you, not the intent of the game itself. If you want to try for that you may but that was never how the game was meant to be.




shadow dragon666 -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 10:23:21)

quote:

No, it's not. You're ignoring what I've said multiple times. USE MP potions, USE heal pads. Even on the most mana intensive classes you can make it to the end of quests, even WITH guests, without issues. MP Potion training is going to be fixed, but you have to understand that free casting with no requirements is gone. You now HAVE to think about which skills you use. You HAVE to think about when to use a potion. You HAVE to think about if you should head back to the heal pad. You are not going to get massive MP cost cuts across the board. You might get a few small ones if they are totally out of line but if you choose not to use what resources you have that's not an issue with the patch.

I didn't in fact I noted hoping you find a healing pad, I also mainly brought up that we have skills which do nothing. Or not to say nothing as that'd be off we have skills which do very little sometimes to the point of complete why bother, though you said you'd look at some of them which is well good to see. As that's part of it. Also I never claimed for all things to get drastic MP cuts, all said was they have skills cost a lot, and that can make them bad in cases. That and some of them have skills which you noted looking at one which under current adds well nothing back overall.

Though if I may ask, Dmk is Dmk it's the game killing thing, though at what point is dark aura under the new standards of MP possibly further down when you fix a few things too and make potions better off, when is this skill worth actually using? At what point do you really save a notable amount of MP enough to make use of it at it's current 64 MP? Which is the only skill thus far I'm even advocating as one to warrant a look and possible drop. With the MP training changes it may be fine where it's at, though used probably not.




flashbang -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 10:40:33)

quote:

Original: Ash

Figured out a fix for the pet dragon not attacking. Rolling it out here soon.


Link to the tweet.

Ashypoo, you are amazing.




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 10:53:31)

quote:

I didn't in fact I noted hoping you find a healing pad, I also mainly brought up that we have skills which do nothing. Or not to say nothing as that'd be off we have skills which do very little sometimes to the point of complete why bother, though you said you'd look at some of them which is well good to see. As that's part of it. Also I never claimed for all things to get drastic MP cuts, all said was they have skills cost a lot, and that can make them bad in cases. That and some of them have skills which you noted looking at one which under current adds well nothing back overall.

It kinda looked like you did when you kept mentioned that some skills have a crazy mana cost still. That's the thing though, they now are correctly penalized for that massive amount of damage. KAA's every skill at level 80 will be dealing the equivalent of a crit every turn (around 1.9 damage IIRC NOT counting any +boost added to it afterwards), when you DO crit you'll be dealing double that for close to 4 times normal damage. There are almost no other classes in the game that come close to that consistent amount of damage on every skill, including your basic attack for 0 Mana. The same goes for Doomknight, I have to re-look at the scaling damage formula but you're inching closer to something like triple or more damage on all your skills, BEFORE you do any kind of +Boost addition. That's INSANE. Even if you just auto attack you're doing more damage than any other class in the game can do, outside of possibly 1 "final" type skill. You can auto attack any monster in the game down for 0 mana, in 1 turn most times, if you're using the right element. That's why I'm not really all that worried about DmK's mana costs. You don't need them at all before a boss. Rite will still just kill anything and that costs no mana. You can then just Life Carve up, and at 0 Wis you can do that whenever you need it. The only time you actually have to really do anything mana wise is during boss fights with those two classes.

quote:

Though if I may ask, Dmk is Dmk it's the game killing thing, though at what point is dark aura under the new standards of MP possibly further down when you fix a few things too and make potions better off, when is this skill worth actually using? At what point do you really save a notable amount of MP enough to make use of it at it's current 64 MP? Which is the only skill thus far I'm even advocating as one to warrant a look and possible drop. With the MP training changes it may be fine where it's at, though used probably not.

It might get a slight decrease but even without using it, if you invest decently in Wis, most bosses will go down before you even need to consider possibly thinking of using it. That's the point that needs to be understood, when you can kill something before it even becomes a threat, which 99% of bosses are in terms of DmK, what's the point of its mana costs? There isn't one. Most bosses will die in 6-7 turns if you use DmK properly. That's far below the 10-20 turns that other classes have built in. The most damaging skill on the class can even be unlocked in battle 1 of the quest, and then you just wander to the boss and use the Full Heal before it and you're golden, you can just burn it down even faster. If you're burning through all your mana in 7 turns I'm not sure what skills you're using or you have no Wis at all. You do need some Wis with any class, just the amount will vary based on which you pick. When MP Potions are updated and the training is fixed you may not even need any at all for DmK, it literally breaks ANOTHER standard because of what it can do.




runekiri -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:02:26)


As this post ended up being quite long, I guess I'll organise my thoughts on this update a bit better than I normally would.

Criticals (& Luck):
Although my main suffers greatly from the nerf to Crit, I personally consider even that nerf to be something very positive. I've always liked the idea of my main being a massive glass-cannon, but I always felt a bit guilty over how powerful that kind of build was. (200 Int, 195 Luck. Nothing else). The increased usefulness of Luck helps balance out the nerf on my character as well.

Mana:
As for the seemingly very unpopular nerf to Wis, I would argue that it can definitely be justified by how powerful the mana-sponge classes are. I've rarely had any trouble conserving mana even on my 0-wis characters, as I tend to go for the less mana-intensive classes. Classes like SoulWeaver simply felt a bit too powerful to be fun to use, in my opinion. If you DO want to run one of the powerful mana-sponge classes, you might have to sacrifice some other stats in favor of Wisdom. As it should be.
After all: Balance means that different builds can be equally valid - which was clearly not the case when mana was of no consequence even to mana-sponge classes.

Dodge, Parry, etc.:
I'm a little bit dizzy today, so I can't quite wrap my head around the dodge/block/parry/miss system... But if your chance of avoiding damage becomes a bit more averaged out, I'm all for it. I remember my main (the one with 195 luck) successfully dodging almost every single attack in some quests, and not a single one in others.
If the chance to avoid damage becomes MORE inconsistant between quests.... Boo! That would be one of the only issues I would have with this update. Like I said though - I'm a bit dizzy today, and all those numbers are too much for my tired brain to understand right now...

Charisma:
As for my favorite part of this update: I am VERY happy to hear that Charisma is actually useful now, and that Beastmaster-builds are viable! I'm gonna have to re-stat one of my characters a bit, but I've been struggling to make a Beastmaster/Leadership ever since the Final 13th, however many years ago that was... Since the character is going to be a Master SoulWeaver, I'm really gonna have to do some Min-Maxing to get the mana necessary.
Now I am eagerly awaiting the armor-saving to get fixed so that I can finally finish that characters design...


UI Art-upgrade:
Finally, we get to the updated UI-design. Everything looks basically the same except with improved art. It's a simple enough change for everything to feel familiar, and easy to navigate while still looking gorgeous. There's not much to complain about, except for the red buttons...
This is obviously just personal opinion, but although I can't quite put my finger on why - the three golden balls on each side of the red buttons bother me. They look a bit... "clumsy", for lack of a better word.

I realize I'm nitpicking at this point, but while I believe in commending positive changes (and making sure that there's not just a bunch of negativity rergarding certain nerfs), I also don't like making posts this long without leaving at least a tad of constructive critisism.

Closing thoughts:
I'm looking forward to seeing how these changes will affect the strategizing required to beat quests. I hope it will actually make a difference, but I fear that using the same skills over and over might still end up being the way to go. I also look forward to seeing what effect the future changes will have - and most of all I am looking forward to seeing some more "Fiesta!" items. [:D]




pitties -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:04:00)

Ash can we please multi destroy items?




runekiri -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:08:53)

@Pitties: Ash wrote the following under Engine Updates.

quote:

Multi sell - This requires a Database level fix that Verly and I don't have access to. We can do everything EXCEPT that small bit of Database work. It's on the list of fixes we're requesting when someone with access has time.


I'm fairly certain the same goes for Multi-destroying items, meaning it is something he doesn't have access to himself. Once (if) we get multi-sell, I'm guessing multi-destroy will be implemented as well though.


I was ninja'd for once instead of doing the ninja'ing. D: But yes, it'll be a singular package. If you've seen how it works in MQ it'll work the same way in DF when this gets implemented. ~Ash




Talion -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:21:59)

While it is true that having 75 crit chance makes lots of skills useless, I need to point out that since DF is a game where leveling up gives only very small buffs, crit was the only way we high level players had to boost our damage compared to lower level players.

My opinion : for every 10 level, your character should get a permanent +2 damage buff. dealing 82-100(+16) at level 80 sounds alot more logical to me. that makes 107 average damage and we can add some more with STR/INT/DEX. Maxed at 200 (+60~ with items), you get an average of 133 damage. With a 35% crit (balanced crit atm), that makes it 179 average damage in a fight.

Previously we had 82-100 dmg, with 260 str, and add 75% crit = 204 damage. Damage would be nerfed by 25 instead of ~50.

Everything else = Good job! :-)




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:22:27)

quote:

I'm a little bit dizzy today, so I can't quite wrap my head around the dodge/block/parry/miss system... But if your chance of avoiding damage becomes a bit more averaged out, I'm all for it. I remember my main (the one with 195 luck) successfully dodging almost every single attack in some quests, and not a single one in others.
If the chance to avoid damage becomes MORE inconsistant between quests.... Boo! That would be one of the only issues I would have with this update. Like I said though - I'm a bit dizzy today, and all those numbers are too much for my tired brain to understand right now...

It's more even. It basically does the following.

What type damage is the monster using? Melee? Does he have Melee defense? *rolls* I hit him through it.
Does he have Block? *Rolls* I hit him!
Does he have Parry? *Rolls* Awww...I missed...
Attack misses.

It does that down the line for every hit so the more of all your defenses you have the more chance you have to have the attack miss and the less damage you'll take. Classes like Ninja are now truly defensive.

quote:

My opinion : for every 10 level, your character should get a permanent +2 damage buff. dealing 82-100(+16) at level 80 sounds alot more logical to me. that makes 107 average damage and we can add some more with STR/INT/DEX. Maxed at 200 (+60~ with items), you get an average of 133 damage. With a 35% crit (balanced crit atm), that makes it 179 average damage in a fight.

Doing that means I would need to buff the health of every monster in the game slightly to maintain the turn kill ratio.

1 turn - war waves.
2-4 - Normal quest mobs.
10-20 - Decent boss.
15-40 - Hard boss.

I tried to go with the least amount of change for players since otherwise there would be more issues with people accepting this than there are now.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:27:28)

Hrm, isn't Luck a bit too powerful now? In terms of increasing average damage it's barely behind the damage stats: At level 80 with 35 crit at 0 Luck, my average damage ((weapon damage + stat damage) * 1.(crit)) only decreased by roughly 2% switching from maxed Int to maxed Luck, not counting auto-crit skills. That seems very imbalanced seeing that crit also gives defense and bonus and applies to all weapons equally.

Also, I'm a bit confused as to how defenses work now; do Block, Dodge and Parry all get rolled against on every (not un-missable) hit? For example, if I have 0 Block and Parry but 200 Dodge, would I still block every attack or would the others being at 0 have an effect? A simple way to answer this would be to solve this for me: I have 40 Melee, 100 Block, 150 Dodge, 0 Parry, the enemy has 25 Bonus. Miss chance with enemy doing Melee =? Miss chance with enemy doing Pierce =?

Edit: Got ninja'd at the above. But then, if hits have to pass through everything to connect, doesn't that mean B/D/P are actually multiplicative, both with each other and with M/P/M? That is, if you have 50 M/P/M and 100 of each of B/D/P, that's a 50% chance to dodge for each, which then means the attack has only a 6.25% chance (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5) of connecting, right?




crabpeople -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:31:20)

Well well... Goodbye 3k hp crab. Hello 2k hp untouchable crab.
Overall I like the changes. I still have to run some tests. but I'll give my review:

Stat changes

STR/INT/DEX: I like it. having +1 every 10 points makes you adjust to the limit your main stat pool acording to your most used items. For example I have 194 int. I don't need more points. My little concern is that it is a nerf to low level players because iirc you needed less than 10 points to get extra damage at low stat points (who cares, new players are going to spend most of their points on WIS [:D]).

WIS: Lots of complaints here. I won't complaint because Ash promised a mana pot buff and a -mana resist stat (I really want this). Again low level players will pay the prize for this. I'm absolutely fine with just 10 wis and a mana sustained class.

CHA: Giving more damage is fine. But my main problem with pets (not guests) is not their damage is their ACCURACY. I'm sick of seing my LFAL cat missing almost 50% of the attacks vs a 30 m/p/m enemy while the hero never misses.

LUK: Love the change. All the damage lost by the crit nerf is returned by this stat. Simply as that. It's an extra 50% of your main stat. Do the same as I stated with STR/DEX/INT but with multipliers of 20 instead of 10. (I have 191 luck).

Secondary Stats

Crit: I'm ok with the crit nerf. What I dislike here is the "round down" thingy. I'm fine with a 9 crit item giving 4% chance. But I don't like a 9 crit item with a 7 crit item giving 7 crit % overall instead of 8. You end up having 2 items with 14 crit being the same as 2 items with 16 crit. Is there any way of making the unpair number crits being useful?

Block/Parry/Dodge: *crab goes to the deepest neverglades with ascendant, he almost never gets hit with his b/p/d skill at mult battles" *clap clap clap* congratulations you made block/dodge/parry useful! Thank you.

Elemental Resistances: The change is understandable.

Questions:

-About elemental resistances: What If my items give me 80 darkness resist and 80 all resist? Do I have 160 res vs darkness or 80?

-
quote:

All Other Classes

The other classes in the game can use any weapon type without issues. It IS recommended that you stick to the same Main Stat and Weapon types as your base class though.

Does that mean that ranger will have weapon type skills instead of pierce and necromancer will have the stun and boost skills as weapon type?


Other:
-I'm really interested on those Fiesta! items.
-Verly where's my rangerino revamperino? This Friday?




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:36:14)

quote:

Hrm, isn't Luck a bit too powerful now? In terms of increasing average damage it's barely behind the damage stats: At level 80 with 35 crit at 0 Luck, my average damage ((weapon damage + stat damage) * 1.(crit)) only decreased by roughly 2% switching from maxed Int to maxed Luck, not counting auto-crit skills. That seems very imbalanced seeing that crit also gives defense and bonus and applies to all weapons equally.

It's a risk/rewards setup. If you want to max out your damage you're sacrificing both End and Wis to do so. You'll hit like a truck, but you'll be lucky to survive anything in terms of actual damage taken. The defenses on Luk may seem like a lot but they're actually pretty low compared to what you get from either a defensive skill or from M/P/M/B/P/D and even when combined you're still having to roll against Bonus in most cases and that can puncture through easily enough with how wonky flashes RNG is. Crit also doesn't give any Defense or Bonus in any realistic way. if you're trying to use it as a "well I kill things faster", then kinda? but in actual calculations it doesn't do anything but give you a chance to hit harder.

quote:

Edit: Got ninja'd at the above. But then, doesn't that mean B/D/P are actually multiplicative, both with each other and with M/P/M? That is, if you have 50 M/P/M and 100 of each of B/D/P, that's a 50% chance to dodge for each, which then means the attack has only a 6.25% chance (0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5) of connecting, right?

It's additive not multiplicative. Since it's individually rolling them all they are all on a separate chance to block, not multiplied together. The Bonus check roll takes full advantage of that to cut them to pieces.

quote:

Also, I'm a bit confused as to how defenses work now; do Block, Dodge and Parry all get rolled against on every (not un-missable) hit? For example, if I have 0 Block and Parry but 200 Dodge, would I still block every attack or would the others being at 0 have an effect? A simple way to answer this would be to solve this for me: I have 40 Melee, 100 Block, 150 Dodge, 0 Parry, the enemy has 25 Bonus. Miss chance with enemy doing Melee =? Miss chance with enemy doing Pierce =?

Yes.
Yes you would at 200 Block.
Miss chance around 52ish%? Because of RNG rolling it varies, but you have a 40%, then a 50%, then a 75%, rolled against a -25 to those. It'll be different every time and there's no "this will miss x%" unless you've maxed them out BECAUSE of that RNG. You do have more of a chance to dodge but random is random and you could be hit on every attack or none with that setup against that bonus. I will say that around 45 Bonus you're going to get hit pretty often mainly because it directly chunking into your defense at a very large amount.

quote:

-About elemental resistances: What If my items give me 80 darkness resist and 80 all resist? Do I have 160 res vs darkness or 80?

It should be counting All as part of Darkness in that case the way I set it up. If it's not I'll need to go in and tinker more but you should only be able to get 80 TOTAL to one element outside of using a skill/buff.

quote:

Does that mean that ranger will have weapon type skills instead of pierce and necromancer will have the stun and boost skills as weapon type?

Not every skill is going to be "all types". Some thematically will be limited to a singular type. Some base classes will get more out of some classes than others but it won't be as massive of a penalty as a Str user trying to use Ascendant for example.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:46:57)

I think you may have misunderstood; there's no reason to sacrifice Wis or End because I moved my points from Int into Luk; I now have 0 Int and 184 Luk (plus a minimum of 16 from items). In doing so, I lost a measly 2% average damage, while gaining 8 Bonus, 10 Defense, and the ability to use any weapon I want except on Mage/DragonMage/Ascendant. Essentially, while it's true you can simply go for both Luck and a damage stat for max damage, when choosing one or the other Luck is almost strictly superior. The only reason I say "almost" is because flat stat damage makes up a larger portion of your total damage at lower levels, meaning Luck doesn't quite reach the same effect until you get to a decent level.


quote:

It's additive not multiplicative. Since it's individually rolling them all they are all on a separate chance to block, not multiplied together. The Bonus check roll takes full advantage of that to cut them to pieces.

I know they aren't actually multiplied together, what I meant was this: Say you're flipping a coin, and Heads = hit while Tails = miss. If I'm understanding the system correctly, the enemy has to get 4 Heads (M/P/M and then B, D and P) in order to connect, while even 1 Tails will cause him to miss, right? If that's the case, then the simple act of being checked multiple times should make them multiplicative, should it not? After all, if you flip a coin once your chance to get Heads is 50%, but if you flip it twice then you've only got a 25% chance to get all Heads.




Yuttt -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:50:18)

quote:


Melee / Pierce / Magic - Every point = 1% chance for an attack to miss. Checked against Bonus. 100 overrides Bonus check and makes all hits miss.

Block / Parry / Dodge - Every 2 points - 1% chance for an attack to miss. Checked against Bonus. 200 overrides Bonus check and makes all hits miss.


I am wondering about the mechanics of this. For example, if I use the two defensive Cryptic skills, granting me 330 B/P/D against Dr When with his 300 Bonus, will he miss all of his hits?




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:55:33)

quote:

I think you may have misunderstood; there's no reason to sacrifice Wis or End because I moved my points from Int into Luk; I now have 0 Int and 184 Luk (plus a minimum of 16 from items). In doing so, I lost a measly 2% average damage, while gaining 8 Bonus, 10 Defense, and the ability to use any weapon I want except on Mage/DragonMage/Ascendant. Essentially, while it's true you can simply go for both Luck and a damage stat for max damage, when choosing one or the other Luck is almost strictly superior. The only reason I say "almost" is because flat stat damage makes up a larger portion of your total damage at lower levels, meaning Luck doesn't quite reach the same effect until you get to a decent level.

Yeah I did. That's partly why the damage boost is so low. When items are tinkered with you're going to be getting more Str/Dex/Int than Luk so the damage differences are going to pull farther and father apart the more you level. Str/Dex/Int will always give more of a flat boost to damage while Luk gives you a "lower" boost but more benefit in trade off stats. You're basically trading offense for Hybrid, both are valid but one will do better when everything is finished.

quote:

I know they aren't actually multiplied together, what I meant was this: Say you're flipping a coin, and Heads = hit while Tails = miss. If I'm understanding the system correctly, the enemy has to get 4 Heads (M/P/M and then B, D and P) in order to connect, while even 1 Tails will cause him to miss, right? If that's the case, then the simple act of being checked multiple times should make them multiplicative, should it not? After all, if you flip a coin once your chance to get Heads is 50%, but if you flip it twice then you've only got a 25% chance to get all Heads.

Multiplicative with a heave curve on "you're not going to win." Basically Vegas. It's more on the .5*.25*.125*.0625. The more times it has to roll the more likely it is you're either going to get hit or hit. The biggest benefit comes from M/P/M like usual. The moment you lose that roll your chances drop below the 50% mark and continue to drop the higher the enemy bonus is because of the roll to succeed check needing technically double M/P/M along with half the bonus needed to clear it.

quote:

I am wondering about the mechanics of this. For example, if I use the two defensive Cryptic skills, granting me 330 B/P/D against Dr When with his 300 Bonus, will he miss all of his hits?

Not the way he, and other "super accurate", bosses and skills are setup. He'll miss a few of his hits most likely but he will still connect with most.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 11:58:32)

quote:

When items are tinkered with you're going to be getting more Str/Dex/Int than Luk so the damage differences are going to pull farther and father apart the more you level.


Ah, excellent! I was hoping that would be the case. As long as that takes into account that flat damage (i.e., stat damage) will fall behind percentage damage (i.e., crit %) as we get more base weapon damage, then it should be great. :D




AugustoCP -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 12:05:36)

Just throwing this out here: I'm at Lv 75 with massive WIS investment, and yet the MP regaining skill does not give me enough for the healing one after 2 uses.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 12:22:13)

quote:

Multiplicative with a heave curve on "you're not going to win." Basically Vegas. It's more on the .5*.25*.125*.0625. The more times it has to roll the more likely it is you're either going to get hit or hit. The biggest benefit comes from M/P/M like usual. The moment you lose that roll your chances drop below the 50% mark and continue to drop the higher the enemy bonus is because of the roll to succeed check needing technically double M/P/M along with half the bonus needed to clear it.


Hmm, if that's the case (and it seems from testing that it is) then I think the system needs more explaining. x.x

You said before:

quote:

What type damage is the monster using? Melee? Does he have Melee defense? *rolls* I hit him through it.
Does he have Block? *Rolls* I hit him!
Does he have Parry? *Rolls* Awww...I missed...
Attack misses.


I took this to mean that if even one of the rolls fails then the attack wouldn't connect, heavily skewing the system in favor of misses rather than hits. Is this the case, and if so then are there modifiers in place to counteract this? From testing, -50 Bonus against an enemy with 0 Bonus to begin with, while I had 5 M/P/M and 0 B/D/P, only gave me a roughly 30% chance to avoid his hits, and I'm not sure what the math is behind that.




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 12:25:41)

It's the case, yes. What I gave was an explanation for how the game rolls to hit, not how the rolls interact. If any of the rolls roll a true, then you hit like I said in the second quote, if they don't, they don't. They have to roll using the formula's I gave, individually, skewed towards misses as per RNG.

Easy explanation. 50 Melee, 100 Block, 100 Dodge, 100 Parry. Enemy has 10 Bonus and is dealing Melee damage.

50-10, *rolls* gets a 60 *counts as hit*.
50 (what 100 Block counts as) -10, *rolls* gets a 52 *counts as hit*.
50 (what 100 Dodge counts as) -10, *rolls* gets a 80 *counts as hit*.
50 (what 100 Parry counts as) -10, *rolls* gets a 30 *counts as miss*.

This happens every time the enemy or you attempt to hit. So over 10 hits you may get lucky and none hit you at those numbers, or it could go horribly and the enemy eats your face.




Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 12:46:28)

Then, does negative Bonus not count? From what you're saying a 30% miss chance at -50 Bonus doesn't seem to add up, but then since I had only 5 M/P/M and 0 B/D/P I suppose a 30% miss chance doesn't fit that either. :P

You know, it occurs to me that - if it's acceptable - this might be simpler if you posted the raw formula that the system uses instead of us using all these anecdotal examples, haha.




Ash -> RE: =DF= Version 14.0.1 (2/24/2015 12:51:17)

The actual formula is in flash script and make no sense in terms of what it would actually mean to people.

- Bonus is a + in that formula. so -50 Bonus with 5 Melee means a 55 roll that needs to be beaten or a 45% miss chance (more than your 30). But, again, this is in Flash with an RNG that rolls 1's 6 times in a row sometimes and can pull off 100's 0 times in 1000 attempts. Sometimes the math ISN'T going to add up and there's not really anything there I can tell you that explains that. It's a buggy RNG.




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