RE: Is magic worth it? (Full Version)

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Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 0:05:01)

@LyRein - Just because we don't know the details of Drakath's backstory in DF, that doesn't mean we can substitute AQW's. Nothing from any other game is canon to DF unless a staff member from DF specifically says it is, or it's a cross-game event that demonstrably affects DF, so can you please stop trying to use AQW as evidence for things in DF?



Rezilia -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 6:47:42)

^ That's your personal opinion. A whole group of us believe the reverse, that what happens in other games is canon for all of them unless a game's specific content introduces a direct contradiction to what happened in another. Neither of our opinions weighs greater than the other.

But this thread isn't about Drakath, or even about the Rose, it's about whether magic is "worth it" in Lore. :P



Brasca123 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 8:41:52)

@ckdragonck. actually... sakurai is the right one, it isn't his opinion, but something that was stated by the staff time and time again here, they have been pretty explicit in saying it out loud that no content from other games is canon for DF unless they say so

that is made like this so that each team has freedom to freely develop their own stories without having to worry about what was made in the other game

they are different universes altogether, while both AQ/DF/MQ/AQW all happen in lore, the universes are so far apart that the semblance they have is really small, mainly a few important characters and some semblance in a few events

still, the games are independent from one another and nothing that was said in one is canon for the other unless it's explicitly said by the staff, the staff members told us that themselves



David the Wanderer -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 9:22:22)

Except that it has been stated time and time again by the game staff that different games have different histories, and therefore you can't apply AQW lore to DF lore, or DF lore to AQ lore. Existing in separate timelines means having separate stories. This isn't a matter of opinions, it's a matter of a clear statement by the game staff: if you believe "since it's true in AQW, it's true in DF", you're going to make a lot of wrong assumptions.



Rezilia -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 11:37:48)

^ Pretty much this.

As much as many of you love to dis other games, things like Alteon's ascent to power are pretty steady in most timelines, so that specific event can easily be stated to have occurred in one game as it happened in another, unless there is a specific part of that event that was different.

When we lack information, it is a-okay to speculate using the events of other games.

-

BTW this is getting off-topic.



Mordred -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 11:51:11)

quote:

When we lack information, it is a-okay to speculate using the events of other games.

No, it's not. Flat out. The staff have said, many times, you can't, because that gives people the wrong impressions. It'd be like assuming everything in Golden Age DC comics was still canon in the New 52.

Magic still totally worth it, whatever the risks.



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 11:53:31)

@LyRein - Because obviously it's impossible to speculate about things without insisting that the way something happened in another game must be how it happened in DF, right? ;P

Really, I said things from other games aren't canon unless a staff member says so, and that's 100% true and has been stated by geo (the head of DF, if you weren't aware) over and over, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss whether something might be canon when there's not any solid confirmation either way. There's no problem in speculating, i.e. discussing how the possibility that something may have been the same could affect things; stating events from other games as facts that support your arguments though, isn't conducive to discussion as it's incorrect and just leads to this exact debate we're having now.



LyRein -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 11:59:47)

@above

When DF has little to no backstory on Swordhaven
and AQW staff says AQW is a direct sequel to DF

what do you want me to say?

"how about dis um drakon blew up uhm lake town dat was swordhaven in da past ya? maybe alteon is ex drakonryder? bcuz he powerfool? perahasps drakky fled dat town? ayy lmao"

it's not my fault AE has terrible worldbuilding though.

i didn't say it was fact though.
i only mentioned it because it's the most logical explanation to these things.
never said it was true.



Rezilia -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 12:02:22)

I agree with Ly. While it may not be canon, it's as close to canon as we're going to get unless the DF devs say otherwise. Other games' content act as an anchor when information is missing, plain and simple.

It also helps us try to figure out Alteon's reasoning for allowing the Rose in. In AQW, he used magic. If there is even the possibility that he's a magic user in DF, that's an important thing to note.



PyroPuppy -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 12:15:05)

Alright, a reminder to you all.

First, this discussion is slipping to extremely off-topic discussion. If you wish to discuss on Swordhaven, DF's past, or whatnot, you're free to make such a thread in the DF GD forum, this is the exact reason the forum is around. This thread however, is here to discuss the importance of magic in DF's universe, and nothing else. Keep the discussion on topic, or posts will be deleted.

As mentioned above, Geo already stated that history of the previous games is not related to DF's history, and it is not OK to make assumptions based on them. Worth mentioning here that all games are on separate time lines, therefore events happening in one game have no effects on the events of the other.

quote:

While it may not be canon, it's as close to canon as we're going to get unless the DF devs say otherwise.

Therefore, it was stated by DF staff that what happens in other games is not related to DF. This is not canon at all.

quote:

AQW staff says AQW is a direct sequel to DF

AQW is NOT a sequel to DF. Basically, if I remember correctly (feel free to correct this rough desription with appropriate quotes) after Galanoth slayed the Dragon of Time all 3 separate timelines of AQ, DF and MQ merged into one new timeline, of AQW.



VJ -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 14:24:56)

Geo covered the time line topics herself.

Geo:
quote:

quote:

:

ORIGINAL: LyRein

He said they do whatever they want.
No seriously, he said that the ideas for AQW and DF are not related (though AQW staff say otherwise) and that the backstories are made just for each game.


There's some overlap (every once in a while I get stuff from Alina, I sent some art to Hollow this week) but we do pretty much all work autonomously.

AQ =/= DF =/= MQ =/= AQW

They are wholly separate timelines that just happen to have some things in common.

In DF, for example, Gravelyn was "adopted" by Sepulchure, she's not his biological kid.





Melissa4Bella -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 15:31:44)

quote:

AQW is NOT a sequel to DF. Basically, if I remember correctly (feel free to correct this rough desription with appropriate quotes) after Galanoth slayed the Dragon of Time all 3 separate timelines of AQ, DF and MQ merged into one new timeline, of AQW.


This is ultimately correct. VJ's post is also correct. End of story.

Quote directly from Alina:

quote:

[3:17:53 PM] Alina: AQW isn't a direct sequel to any of the games, but rather it takes bits and pieces from each of them.
[3:18:09 PM] Alina: I suppose if it were going to be a direct sequel to any of them, it would be to all 3 of them. AQ, DF, and MQ, since it comes after them in the grand timeline


Now, I'd like any further discussion about the origins of AQW to stay out of this topic. Seriously. When a member of the forum staff directs discussion away from breaking the rules they really aren't putting a hardship on anyone. You can start a new thread about various topics if you want to, but there's no need to drag this on and on.
Thanks!



geopetal -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 18:09:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sakurai the Cursed

@LyRein - Just because we don't know the details of Drakath's backstory in DF, that doesn't mean we can substitute AQW's. Nothing from any other game is canon to DF unless a staff member from DF specifically says it is, or it's a cross-game event that demonstrably affects DF, so can you please stop trying to use AQW as evidence for things in DF?b



This is absolutely 100% correct.

Artix loves the characters of the AE universe. I have been in a conference room with him while he stared at a HeroMart poster and said, "Let's retell their stories but perfectly this time." So, from that mindset, since he's Head Paladin, new games represent new timelines, new shifts in canon, and bring in new characters and new ideas to experiment with. Each game then has its own team that then grows the world from the seeds of what Artix wanted to experiment with in that particular timeline.

Since each game has its own team and, since they each have their own unique beginning, they each represent a new opportunity and way to uniquely evolve that games version of Lore and characters.



VJ -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/9/2015 18:23:50)

@Geopetal
And that is one of the many reasons AE is so special and Unique as there is no other game out there that comes close to AE and those working on these games. that an no other game that I have ever played has the actual Staff come and interact with us ether.




brotherinlaw -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/11/2015 22:08:30)

bookmarking a link to this thread, where players, Archknights, and staff all resoundingly stated the autonamy of the timelines, for future use....


And, to get this thread on topic (kinda), for anyone like Warlic, Cysero, Xan, or anyone else who is connected to mana in a way that is different, unpredictable, or necessary for there survival, how would those who support a kinder, less aggressive version of the Rose over just keeping magic propose we deal with such irregulars?



Jovan -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/12/2015 17:56:49)

@brotherinlaw: They can't. This is why so many of the Rose members are extremists. There is no "easy" antimagical response to such power. Although, Warlic and Xan both seemed a bit remorseful at the end of the Incursion. Now, my own thoughts: the Rose's true purpose is not to eliminate magic, but rather to control who possesses it. Secondly, why on Lore did the Rose destroy Hunter's Paradise, the foremost gathering of hunters of dangerous magical beasts?
Edit: Thanks hidan, for correcting me. I thought I was misremembering. Although I don't think it was explicitly said who destroyed Hunter's Paradise, it wasn't the Rose.



hidan_orochimaru -> RE: Is magic worth it? (12/12/2015 18:01:41)

@Jovan: IIRC it wasn't the Rose who destroyed Hunter's Paradise,it was Aspar's minion,Yellow. It was during Book 3 Tomix's Saga.



Yozefu -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/26/2016 22:24:23)

I found myself many times agree with some of claims of The Rose, but they are too radical and somtimes fake due the fact they use magic for their own needs, it seems to me like The Rose's leaders want to keep the magical power for themself, that's might be with some good reasons but that's a dangeraous situation for Lore, like every dictatorial government.



supersonic805 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 0:22:05)

Some people just want to hurt other people. It's that simple. Sometimes, they have a reason, like Sepulchure, Xan, Drakonnan, Aspar and Akanthus; but sometimes, they don't, like Zadd and Valtrith. Magic was one way to do it, weapons another. The Rose also has people who want to hurt things.



Dante Redorigin -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 0:54:11)

To ask if magic is worth it in a world where it makes up the very essence of reality and the life force/physical matter of numerous creatures and things that occur naturally, it's like asking if gravity or oxygen is worth it.

The Rose railing against magic as a whole is basically like saying you should declare war on the planet itself for having earthquakes and tsunamis and tornadoes, simply because they upend human life as seen as being normal. Nature doesn't go out of it's way to destroy human property or hurt or kill humans as route. Humans using fire to burn other people, water to drown people or rocks to beat or kill eachother is the only way any of those aspects of nature can be directly applied to maliciously hurting or killing anyone. And the root of it there is the human element.

That same human element exists in people taking magic and using it for terrible ends, something the Rose themselves are also guilty over. Heck, from what we've seen, nearly the entire organization seems to have been created to further Jaania's own personal beliefs surrounding how magic "should" be used, and the few who don't follow her reasoning are those who follow other pursuits just as personally focused or prejudice based.



Rio3678 -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 8:38:04)

quote:

The Rose's leaders want to keep the magical power for themself,


At the very least I'm pretty sure Akanthus does.

quote:

Some people just want to hurt other people. It's that simple. Sometimes, they have a reason, like Sepulchure, Xan, Drakonnan, Aspar and Akanthus;


You know after the reveal at the end of Espina Rosa by Elryn that Akanthus was manipulating Jaania, I just cannot stop laughing at that. I'm calling it now, one way or another, Akanthus is going to be the final boss of Book 3 in some shape or form.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 9:24:47)

^ i called it so long ago that ark is going to be a kefka style villain and the final boss of book three. Mana god ARK the hypocrite



DarkLore -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 9:45:35)

Let's look at both arguments...

Magic can kill obviously. But healing magic Can obviously prevent death by healing grave injuries. Magic does attract evil since they use it too. But just as many (If not more.) Heroes and NPC's use it for good! Some villains even went straight! (Drakonnan,) Zorbak, to a slight degree occasionally. Yeah usually only when it benefits him most, but he's still a nicer Moglin than most psychopathic villains!



Onyx Darkmatter -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 9:49:03)

Here's the thing: Magic is essential in Lore as air is essential for humans. You get rid of it, and you'll have a terrible result.

But let's say that we did eliminate Magic, completely. The Rose has to ask themselves this question: What will happen to Lore if Magic is gone? While most (I'm assuming that's the case) of these sheeps are dreaming of a Utopia that may never happen (a world of "peace" and a world of "serenity"), some of the members needs to question this and see if it's even worth eliminating. Even if we were to completely eliminate magic, that doesn't mean it will end all conflicts and sufferings because there's always going to be a substitution. Meaning, why stop there? Why not get rid of weaponry or even fire for this case: both of them caused far more harm and conflicts than any other tools.
See, this is the type of mentality that the Rose doesn't get. Yes, Magic has caused so much harm, but it also caused so much good as well.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: Is magic worth it? (4/27/2016 9:51:34)

^ i wish someone in the rose had ALL magic drained from their body...i doubt jaania would enjoy the results.



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