RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (Full Version)

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Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/11/2023 18:57:21)

quote:

Armor

1. Have the armor pay appropriate MRM for heal resist 12.5% to partner with the shield for flavor.

2. Deadly Catch- Locks attacks to water (elecomp) Warmaster was a spell based skill. Here, make this a water ele-lock with elecomp, but pays SP to inflict a drain poison to the targeted resource indicated from Deep Healing. Unsure if harm poison is best for balance (like Infinite Dark Caster) or water, which may need elecomp? Whatever is best for balance. The attack art is unchanged.

3. Deep Healing- Toggles what Deadly Catch targets. (a la Warmaster Dragon Rider) HP/MP/SP (Siphon Poison target resource)

4. Ocean's Curse- Quick Cast 1x per battle Skill that eats all Poisons (same parameters as before with the water freeze, so must have at least x amount, and caps at balancing determined value.. This is a quick cast poison eat skil that heals your HP's. (1x per battle) This also changes your armor lean to "Tsunami Lean" for 1 turn. So Take in 1.35x damage, deal 1.35x damage with weapons, and do x1.475 damage with spells (This lasts until after the monster's next turn, so you'll be defensively worse off too for a turn) ~~Not concerned with exact values, just no matter the build, you're going to be doing more damage

Weapon

The elevuln from the weapon was a nice way to increase the poison on the other mode. The weapons came out great. No change

Misc

I know there was talk of having the misc maybe change to increase poison damage, which would be nice synergy with this idea. I support that for the misc. But I propose this:

Misc Toggles between 2 Modes:
Mode 1 +25% Poison and Burn Damage
Mode 2 .5 Heal-back to water attacks (a la osiris, dragon amulet, shattered horizon miscs)


Pet:

Gives a passive 5% Heal resist when out
2 Modes-
Mode 1 Plush Mort SP heal Clone (people been asking for this)
Mode 2 Water Poison Siphon Mode (Pays half damage to inflict water HP siphon)



I know there's some issues with making the giftmaster prizes have a FSB, but since this is a community set and everyone has access, I think a FSB is appropriate for sure.

So added to this, I propose a FSB of adding elecomp to damage to the weapon's clickable skills.



Dardiel -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 1:36:57)

The things I support are the suggestions for siphon poisons (particularly ones that can target resources other than HP), Dreiko's permanent dynamic regeneration idea, Sapphire's concept of a temporary extreme lean (though I'd make it usable more than once per battle), and also the concept of the pet recovering SP

Not that I'm opposed to anything else, but those are the ideas that I particularly enjoyed.



Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 6:34:40)

I don't see the point of eating siphon poison, which heals on a per-turn basis, to a regen, which heals on a per-turn basis. The poison is at least damaging the monster and is therefore, superior.


I also don't see the point in having both the Mermazon set and the Wingweaver set both have regen.



CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 7:19:57)

@SapphireCatalyst2021: Firstly, it's worth mentioning that no decision has yet been made on Wingweaver's mechanics. There is no guarantee both sets will end up with Regeneration as a base mechanic. Secondly, of the two more popular ideas currently being discussed, one focuses on Dodgelash and the other on Barriers. Only one reference is made to the regeneration status in both of these suggestions, with the pet in the latter set applying a regeneration targeting MP and SP. Thirdly, the heal resistance of this latter set would directly compliment the Regeneration offered from the Mermazon set due to its application of heal resistance.

More broadly, the conversion of Siphon poison to regeneration makes sense because the potency of this status is split between dealing and healing damage. It offers the player a way to quickly stack regeneration, which could be especially beneficial if the player needs HP rapidly or wants to cleanse a status (second skill). Regeneration also activates at a different moment in the turn cycle, which could prove beneficial.



Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 10:13:16)

quote:

which could be especially beneficial if the player needs HP rapidly

If you needed HP rapidly, an instant heal rather than a regen would be more useful since the power of the heal would be split across a few turns if it were regen instead

quote:

or wants to cleanse a status (second skill)

I honestly can think of literally no cases in the game whereby a negative status inflicted by the monster on the player would be threatening enough to even warrant carrying a status cleanse around. Furthermore, the more "dangerous" statuses would usually if not always, have their own mechanics that lets you remove them by doing other things depending on the boss



Corvid -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 10:36:53)

^a couple of fights that come to mind for status cleanse are Baorus and Lunar Maiden… not a ton



CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 10:41:03)

@Korriban Gaming
An instant heal would undoubtedly be better than regeneration. However, instant healing isn't always possible - You might not have adequate resources (MP/SP) to spend. If Poison is your fuel as suggested by @Dreiko Shadrak, you would essentially be "cashing in" on previously-invested resources. Depending on how this is implemented (i.e. is it Quickcast?), you could also double up, using both.
You could argue that potions fill this niche already, but:
i). You only have limited potions, and it would be wrong to assume everyone naturally stocks up
ii). This same argument could be used to justify never releasing any healing effects other than SP targeted/Quickcast because Potions are inherently better. For obvious reasons (particularly for Mages!), this isn't a very good justification.
iii). Potions are outside of standard assumptions. Some players (myself included) would rather use ones that fall inside them.

You could extrapolate your reasoning for status cleanses in the same way: If no monster carries a threatening status effect, why release a status cleanser? Put simply:
i). Not everyone may agree monsters carry no threatening status effects
ii). If this is true, why are cleansers like Unstoppable (Werepyre) and particularly Absorb Hexes (Necromancer) popular?
iii). Future planning is never a bad idea...



RobynJoanne -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 12:25:56)

@Corvid
Anim's fights are the most notable ones. There are a handful that also stand out besides Baorus, which you mentioned.
Voidwraith can inflict oppressive Chokes. Here's an image courtesy of JhyShy. I think one could reasonably call that a lost battle if it gets to that point, and it absolutely can since Voidwraith will just keep stacking endlessly. There's also no way to remove this Choke with the battle's mechanics. This is also a situation where Regen is superior to a normal healing spell, as the latter would be affected by the Choke whereas the former would not. Of course, Potions would also work, but many people prefer to avoid using Potions.
Celestial Phoenix can similarly inflict massive Chokes. If you try to nuke it outside of a Fire armor, it will attempt to inflict an x0 Choke on you.
Mister Frostvalverse, back when he was around, inflicted massive Blinds that contributed to his massive dodgelash damage.
Sylith inflicts a lot of different status effects, and they let her deal Wind damage on top of her standard Light and Darkness damage. That Wind attack contributes immensely to her difficulty, as there's no good way to defend against all her elements. Sylith's my top pick for most underrated boss in the game in desperate need of some simple standard boss immunities.
The Numbered Beasts in the lead up to the Prime Conduit also all inflict a lot of status effects. The worst are Sandstorm Guard, which inflict Daze and Blind, both of which scale with resists and have opposite element attacks. You have to pick your poison of infinite stuns or -100 BtH Blinds.

In fact, Daze is the most infamous status effect since it so often does become just an infinite stun. However, in that specific case, you'd usually prefer a cleanser specific to stuns that works before your turn so you actually get to go. If you can't get that, a generic status cleanser is good just in case you do get that infinitesimal chance of going (now that it seems many Dazes are capped at below 100% instead of going to multiple turns of 200+%). Also worth noting is the relatively unknown fact that Pets/Guests do not get stat bonuses if the Player is stunned. Even Beastmasters aren't completely immune to stunlocking.

There are also some monsters that pay most of their damage to inflict a DoT. A DoT cleanser would make these fights substantially easier.
Lurking Doombinder's one such example. It pays a lot of damage to inflict Burns.
Bound Defiler pays a substantial amount of damage to inflict multiple DoTs.
Rat King also pays damage to inflict both Burn and Poison.
Safiria pays a bit of damage to inflict a very strong Bleed, taking advantage of her naturally high level and her level debuff. Of course, she's an Unbeatable, so you normally wouldn't fight her.

Then, there's a casualty of the stat revamp: Off-Balanced/Entangled.
-Dex debuffs used to substantially reduce BtH for all builds. Now, it's worthless against two of the main builds and destroys Rangers. Two bosses that reduce Dex permanently by ridiculous amounts are Void Dragon Queen and Woolzard. The former has a stacking permanent Dex debuff, and the latter inflicts -300 Dex Entangles. Both would be awful for Rangers. Absorb Hexes also doesn't work on stat debuffs, so you cannot rely on Necromancer to bail you out here.

These are some of the ones I could remember since these are relatively newer fights. An important thing to note is that none of these fights have mechanics that remove the status effects. Bosses having mechanics to deal with their own mechanics is a relatively rare phenomenon that has only become more popular recently in conjunction with the mechanic of temporarily removing Freedom on bosses.

With all that said, this is also why I dislike status cleansers. Unlike Korriban, I don't think it's useless. Indeed, I think the very opposite. Status cleansers are absurdly efficient items that pay far less than they should to remove status effects, usually substantially reducing a boss's difficulty in unintended ways. Status cleansers are especially useful for builds without End or Luk that have lower chances of resisting status effects, and of course, status cleansers are key to many 0 stat strategies. I believe that 0 stat runs are a failure of game design instead of an accomplishment, so that's not an endorsement. All of these bosses can be beaten without status cleansers and are arguably intended to be beaten without them in mind, so I consider status cleansers bad powercreep.



Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 12:34:47)

quote:

An instant heal would undoubtedly be better than regeneration. However, instant healing isn't always possible - You might not have adequate resources (MP/SP) to spend. If Poison is your fuel as suggested by @Dreiko Shadrak, you would essentially be "cashing in" on previously-invested resources. Depending on how this is implemented (i.e. is it Quickcast?), you could also double up, using both.
You could argue that potions fill this niche already, but:
i). You only have limited potions, and it would be wrong to assume everyone naturally stocks up
ii). This same argument could be used to justify never releasing any healing effects other than SP targeted/Quickcast because Potions are inherently better. For obvious reasons (particularly for Mages!), this isn't a very good justification.
iii). Potions are outside of standard assumptions. Some players (myself included) would rather use ones that fall inside them.

I was not referring to potions here regarding the insta heal, rather I was referring to this suggestion by Sapphire
quote:

4. Ocean's Curse- Quick Cast 1x per battle Skill that eats all Poisons (same parameters as before with the water freeze, so must have at least x amount, and caps at balancing determined value.. This is a quick cast poison eat skil that heals your HP's. (1x per battle) This also changes your armor lean to "Tsunami Lean" for 1 turn. So Take in 1.35x damage, deal 1.35x damage with weapons, and do x1.475 damage with spells (This lasts until after the monster's next turn, so you'll be defensively worse off too for a turn) ~~Not concerned with exact values, just no matter the build, you're going to be doing more damage


quote:

^a couple of fights that come to mind for status cleanse are Baorus and Lunar Maiden… not a ton

Baorus's status isn't very threatening with enough res stacking and Lunar Maiden is well...a test mob that stayed for like a month tops. Of course, you could say that it means there's a possibility more of such mobs are coming to the game but you would need a good handful at least to make Status Cleanse worth carrying, and that's gonna take quite a lot of releases to build up a good number assuming we get some variety.

quote:

ii). If this is true, why are cleansers like Unstoppable (Werepyre) and particularly Absorb Hexes (Necromancer) popular?

I am not sure if Unstoppable is popular at all, a ton of other items in the game have the same effect but I really don't see anyone using those items at all. As for Absorb Hexes, I think it's used as a typical healing spell since it's already compressed into the armor rather than as a status cleanser. I can see the popularity of the latter but if you can, you should substantiate your claim regarding the former.

quote:

iii). Future planning is never a bad idea...

I mean, I can't argue with this, but this point of mine above should address it
quote:

there's a possibility more of such mobs are coming to the game but you would need a good handful at least to make Status Cleanse worth carrying, and that's gonna take quite a lot of releases to build up a good number assuming we get some variety.


Edit: Seems like our posts came out around the same time so let me address what Robyn mentioned above
@Robyn
For Voidwraith and Celestial Phoenix, if you're getting hit with massive amounts of Choke, doesn't it just mean you're not really using the appropriate element gear to defend?
Same for Mister Frostvalverse.
I don't think you were even supposed to let Sylith take a turn, every single strategy I've seen so far is aimed to nuke her down the first 2 turns. You're doing the fight wrong if you let her hit you.
The Numbered Beasts are 1 exception I would say, but that's it, 1 exception, assuming you agree with my point about Anim's guards being a 1 off, temporary thing that has no effect on the main story. Even then, you can go first and nuke down The Numbered Beasts before they take a turn. I know nuking is not how you play but not every single boss should be suited for a long setup battle, some are simply easier if you take them down quicker

For the DoT monsters, all you really have to do is stack res

Ultimately, many different tools are given to us to beat stuff, if you choose not to use said tools because of personal beliefs, you can't complain that the fights are hard because they're meant to be done with what's given to us in the game. You don't want to use stats, potions, this equipment, that equipment etc. You're essentially making life difficult for yourself because you want to. The problems you mentioned are self-created problems, there are solutions in the game, you willingly choose not to use them

quote:

Bosses having mechanics to deal with their own mechanics is a relatively rare phenomenon that has only become more popular recently in conjunction with the mechanic of temporarily removing Freedom on bosses.

These are becoming more common rather than the opposite, so if anything I would say Status Cleansers would struggle even more to find a useful space in one's active inventory in the future




CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 12:56:03)

@Korriban Gaming:
My apologies, I didn't assume you were explicitly referring to @SapphireCatalyst2021's post since you didn't reference it in your response. Nonetheless, there are still some potentially beneficial aspects to regeneration:
  • Interactions with other set mechanics e.g., trading for Status Cleanse, Regeneration boosting from the misc
  • Aspects associated with the regeneration itself e.g., not scaling via stat (looking at Warriors here since they don't have many STR scaling healing options...)
    I'm aware you didn't specifically raise potions, I intentionally did so to properly cover my bases.

    As for Unstoppable, it's certainly true that the "Light of Destiny" series is less desired than certain other options (and unsurprisingly so, Bloodblades, Zealot's Wrath and the new Melee weapon place a strangehold on the offensive market). What unstoppable offers that Absorb Hexes (and this new skill) cannot is a quickcast way to deal with stuns (Paralyse, Fear, Freeze). These effects, if present on a boss, can be extremely painful to deal with because without being able to act, there's no easy way to counter them beyond status resistance. Unstoppable allows you to essentially disregard them, offering a massive advantage. No doubt that this effect is more niche (one of the reasons why Bloodblade is more widely used), but nonetheless very valuable under these conditions.

    In terms of the other bosses raised, VoidWraith and Celestial Phoenix in particular punish players that attempt to simply trivilialise fights by nuking them instantly. "Less is more" is the key to defeating them, as trying a fancy nuke from the 2015-8 era will be met with swift punishment. Nonetheless, We can't expect players to deal with bosses in the same way, or to fully know and understand the mechanics they face. Nor can we expect them necessarily have the equipment on hand to pull of a trivial take down (FO players might easily be able to nuke a boss like Sylith for example, FD players might struggle to achieve that). In times where bosses aren't trivialised, these status effects have the capacity to shut a player down if not dealt with. We have a toolkit we can use to deal with such situations, and status cleansers can and should be one of them!

    On a seperate note, I wouldn't base much on Sylith and Ryn, as they're products of an age before nuke countermeasures were widespread.



    • Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/12/2023 18:59:34)

    I think the regen on the shield is plenty enough, especially since it provides two options. I think from there the set should focus on heal siphons from poisons and the ability eat poisons for an instant heal (so moving the heal aspect more upfront) and/or giving the FD set a significant damage boost even if temporary.

    My suggestion takes into account the Sp costs being used. This is why I suggested a Plush Mort clone . It would partner well with both the SP regen from the shield as well as the sp cost attached to the poison siphon skill...so that it can be used a bit more often.

    I know a weapons based skill is usually also frowned upon with a FD set, and we always seem to predictably run with weapon based or a simple ele lock/ele comp for FO and spell based for FD, but I think an elelock w/ elecomp on FD and neutral armors actually pushes normalized FD offense up a notch to make actually using standard weapons not half bad. Void awakening armor is neutral but it's elelock gives it a 167% elecomp boost and while it's not the highest damage in the world, it's certainly not a bad middle ground where you can get better than normal offense and still get good enough defense. I just wanted to bring that up as I'm sure someone might view my skill#1 on a FD armor and reflexively think "no synergy, no thank you" It's sometimes time to do something different, and I find armors that can be both offensive a little bit and defensive a little bit some of the best stuff in the game. Not everything has to be min maxed to death.

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    In regards to status cleansers, I saw a post listing something like 12 monsters and possibly test mobs inside Anim's house that these become handy in. 12. Thats, idk likely less than 1% of monsters. I wouldn't even really mention Anim's stuff, as these really don't count. I also think the 0 stat argument is outside the bounds of normal gameplay and so that entire thing can be discarded.

    I don't mind if a status cleanse is attached to something, as compression, especially if it doesn't detract from the main focus on what something is doing. Having it inside a class or subrace armor, or as apart of a healing spell or something or inside a tome can be of use. But, while I have no idea what the numbers would look like, I have a hunch that most players aren't bothering with status cleanse effects in 99% of gameplay and so I think when it comes to ideas, people would rather try and focus ideas on things that can be useful far more often.

    It's sort of like the INT-based elemental penetration effect proposed for INT style bonus. The numbers presented stop at 100% resist. 95%+ monsters have at least 1 resist over this. So the style bonus is mostly a waste unless you increase the % of battles it's actually be beneficial...like using standard assumed mob resists as a guideline instead.

    So ultimately present ideas that can be useful , in more instances, than ideas that are so utterly situational that it detracts from the desirability of it.

    How much a status pays for what it does is completely irrelevant if you almost never need to use it.



    RobynJoanne -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 17:43:44)

    @Korriban
    The image I linked uses proper resists for Voidwraith.
    As for Mister Frostvalverse, he inflicts a -50 Blind on proper resists. While I didn't list the numbers for the bosses I listed, I listed only these bosses for a reason.
    Celestial Phoenix's Choke is still -28% with proper resists. Celestial Phoenix also has a damage cap and heals large amounts when its SP is charged.

    Stacking resists for DoTs does not work if the DoTs stack endlessly and you cannot kill the boss before that stack up. Baorus is the strongest example of this since his 10-turn Poisons will stack up, and his low damage cap + Siphon Poison mean he takes a long time to kill without certain cheese setups that cost money.

    I believe you have completely misunderstood my point if you criticize my decision to limit myself. I never said the fights are too hard for me. I like the challenge. I'm saying I prefer the challenge not be minimized by items that remove that challenge from the game. I believe I haven't contradicted myself by listing these examples.

    As for your final point, I'd like to raise the most recent monsters the Godscourge monsters. They inflict a variety of effects including Disease. Disease is one status effect that has an obscene difference in valuation between its cleansing and the amount actually necessary to remove it normally. The Godscourge monsters do have a mechanic to make them weaker if you fight them properly, but this does not include removing their status effect infliction attacks. Just because I said these kinds of mechanics are getting more common does not mean that status cleansers do not have a use. If anything, the very fact that status cleansers can also work regardless of the monster's own intended mechanics for the fight is a major issue. Status cleansers remove the thought required to play a fight as intended and lets players bulldoze through status effects by paying marginal amounts of resources.

    @Sapphire
    I'll just mention to you like I did to Korriban that the list was not a full list of the monsters I know that have status effects, only a curated list of some noteworthy boss monsters. Many monsters use status effects as their primary differentiating factor after basic damage. It's just an easy game design choice. Status cleansers kill off that design tool. Obviously, there are many ways to deal with status effects beyond status cleansers. Status cleansers are just the most complete counter there is to an enormous part of monster design.

    As a side note, I don't know why, but your posts sometimes break the borders of the screen, making it very hard to read. It likely makes others leery of reading your posts as well. Do you know what's going on? Could any staff members explain the site issue involved here?



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 18:42:30)

    Unsure, they look like everyone else's on my screen.



    In regards to status cleansers, I personally will never carry something that does this by itself. If it's inside something via compression, I may consider it. I still don't find mob status's a major enough factor in this game to justify a carry 98% of the time, in my personal opinion. I may have some options in storage, for specific instances, but either it's niche and thus, it's in storage ready to be brought out , or it's better in everyday applications and thus, IMO, is a better idea because an item made it into my everyday carry inventory. Just how I view it.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 19:04:06)

    @SapphireCatalyst2021
    In response to the comments raised about the set:
  • The shield is the only component of the set that currently provides regeneration, and only for 392 SP + (i.e. it's quite expensive). Regeneration has also been neglected in recent years - the only level-appropriate options are Seeds of Restoration, Catnip Senses, Healing Branch (and even this latter one is only if you have leftover from status cleansing). The other sources are either underlevelled ( Power shard and Solaris Shield) or just outright permarare ( Aum Plant and Frostval Merc's Regen Factor). You also have the Regenerative Spritzer potion (and these fall outside balance like HP/MP pots). Another method that falls inside standard assumptions would most definitely be welcome. That said, I fully recognise your opinion that you would prefer a direct heal or damage boost.
  • Based on the fact that Plushie Mort is a Heromart item, I don't think we can expect or reasonably request a clone in terms of SP regeneration.
  • With respect, I vehemently disagree regarding Elelocks on FD. If a player is using a FD armour, they're doing it because they want to minimise damage intake (indeed, if they wanted to maximise output, they'd be using an elelocked skill in FO/Spellcaster). This means the primary reason to use FD is to defend vs primary resistance. On this front, elelocking will only be beneficial if it overcome the damage deficit between it and using a non-elelocked 100-proc attack (which doesn't follow armour lean). To demonstrate the problem, I'll be overly generous an assume a 1.8 elecomp (FD elecomp modifiers can't get this high).

    A simple 100-proc Bow in FD against assumed 130% resistance, with a *1.1 modifier for having no true special We'll use a modifier of 1 to denote the bow attack, because this whole equation is technically equal to the 100% Melee of a player attack, with the exception of the second *1 modifier, which represents armour lean):

    quote:

    1 [Weapon Attack] * 1.1 [No true special] * 1 [No Armour Lean Effect] * 1.3 [Elemental resistance at 130%] = 1.43


    To win out, the elecomped attack must exceed the above number. We want to use a no-proc weapon so the elecomp is guaranteed. Here's our value:

    quote:

    1 [Weapon Attack] * 1.08 [No-proc bonus] * 0.8 [FD Armour Lean] * 1.8 [Elecomp] = 1.552


    So, what is the minimum number needed (i.e. resistance modifier) we could apply before it falls below the 1.43 threshold?

    quote:

    1.552 / 1.43 = 1.085


    What this means is if the elemental resistance modifier falls below 93%, using a non-elecomped 100-proc attack is going to be better.

    quote:

    1.552 * 0.92 = 1.428
    1.552 * 0.93 = 1.443


    Given this is also the element we're supposedly defending against, this mathematically demonstrates there are almost no situations in which an elelocked elecomped attack would be preferable in FD. We're even doing it assuming an unreasonably generous elecomp modifier! With Neutral, it's slightly more complicated (and better) as you don't have to deal with that Armour Lean modifier. With that said, Neutral lean armours have a huge number of problems to be sorted out before a niche idea like this could be implemented(i.e. how can they possibly compete with FO/FD?). This problem would arguably be even worse for Weapon based and Spell based skills, because the elecomp in the former goes to cost, whereas the latter to damage.

  • You mention that you prefer status cleansers when they're attached to something else with other uses as compression. The armour fits this definition. It has 3 skills, with this as one option.

    I'm also going to skip over comments you made about INT style bonus for now just because I think it's a conversation best saved for the next update on stats.



    • Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 19:34:59)

    I know the numbers will bear out that weapons based skills on a FD armor is far from optimal, and I didn't need the numbers to know this. That still doesn't excuse the complete lack of imagination in item design by simply always going with the status quo. Not everyone wants to use a 100 proc in FD always. I can think of a small handful of weapons where this is the case, and many 100 proc users actually would rather utlizie their status effects, so jsing assumed math w/o a bit of actual gameplay reality is a bit off, in many cases. If you're just playing for damage, then ok. But more to AQ exists, and with item design, this should be considered, sometimes. The reluctance to try and make FD and neutral armors with some primarily FO based ideas and make some FO armors wth FD based ideas IMO only serves to restrict design space. And making FO or FD armors with an express understanding of the specific weapons used is also lack of design space. it's like how mandate has 2 effects that are anti-synergistic, yet work very well together with some certain ideas. Yeah I get there are players who will just think its bad because they're not going to be hitting for 2k/turn like every other armor they're using, and I get monsters are usually of little threat to honestly not use FO armors from a defensive standpoint. Or players in FD armors will just always blindly use 100 proc stuff. Good for them.

    But why not make something every now and again that's hitting that middle ground, where you get good offense and good defense but neither are BiS in each side...the result could potentially be a very potent armor/set, etc.

    I only suggest things from time to time to challenge the status quo, which, at times, I feel is stale. I do so knowing it likely won't change. (For now) And thus, argument provided does little to sway my opinion.

    At the end of the day, we're all going to have different preferences. That's perfectly fine. I'm only really planting seeds for later. They'll get watered in time, and grow into something understood.

    For now, keep on, keepin' on.



    I'm not against the status cleanse idea on the Giftmaster set as much as I think it needs to go on the Mermazon set.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 20:13:40)

    I fully agree that creativity is an important factor in item design. With that said, substantial gameplay experience is not required to work out that elelocking a FD armour would make for a horrible, sub-par item. It would produce an item without even a remote hope of being able to compete with basic FD equipment. Your point about there being a sizeable group of FD users preferring status effects is absolutely valid, and that group also won't be interested elelocking either for this reason. I fully support the notion of FD armours that take some FO mechanics and run with them. Just not this one!



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/13/2023 22:51:11)

    I disagree, in this case.

    Let's use warmaster dragon rider as a baseline for comparison to my Mermazon suggestion, much of which it's based off of.

    The Warmaster Dragon Rider armor's first skill is a spell based skill with standard costs, and this inflicts a burn to the selected resource from the 2nd skill. This burn is either hitting for normal damage or it's depleting the Mp and SP bars, so those monsters will use them less often.

    If you make a siphon version of this, it's healing back the targeted resource. Why would I want to spend massive resources to heal back resources when I can not spend anything by making the first skill by default inflict a siphon poison ? It's as stupid as using an Sp guest that heals SP or an MP guest that heals MP. Those are terrible design decisions.

    I wanted the ability to spend little to no resources to inflict a siphon poison which would heal it . I was back and forth to try and pay for this between lowering damage, or using an SP cost but not make it a skill.

    I would honestly prefer to have it be free somehow, but I'm not sure that's possible. And if it's going to be a FD armor, lowering damage further might feel unattractive. So I went with an ele lock and sp cost, with the caveat that a Plush Mort clone would help supplement the cost. (Btw, if it is thought that a clone of Plush Mort isn't allowable because it's a HeroMart item, I simply will have to say that's a pretty terrible policy. This version doesn't have to have the same potency on the heal. Plush Mort can still be king, and this pet can have something else that takes up it's melee value to both differentiate it as well as slightly lower the heal power. But I digress)

    If I were to attempt to design an armor that's trying not to USE a lot of resources , but rather GAIN resources as a matter of design decision, which could be used in any number of other ways, then maybe the *free* elelock simply helps give it more damage.

    Secondly, my design decision on my suggestion also takes into account the third skill, which is turning the armor into a nuke potential for 1 turn and it can still use the weapons based skill. So again, all that math is pointless based on my suggestion's specific direction.

    Yes, in many and most cases you're right. But not every armor or set has to be cookie cutter with some theorycrafted intended gameplay . You know, imagination.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/14/2023 6:30:54)

    @SapphireCatalyst2021:
    Siphon poison is a less efficient method of healing that direct healing or regeneration. I've already explained the various reasons why converting siphon poison to regeneration could be worthwhile. The criticism you raise regarding inefficiency is applicable to all siphon poisons across the board because they aren't guaranteed to inflict and spend a good chunk of power dealing damage rather than healing. This doesn't mean they have no place, but rather serve a different purpose. However, you do raise a point with your Warmaster-esque concept - it is somewhat circular to spend resources healing resources without additional support (it has worked e.g., Darkcaster, but it's tricky). With that in mind, I no longer support your Warmaster system as an alternative. I don't think it would be reasonable to try something risky like that when @Broccoli points out we don't have a decent FD Water option that's freely available outside of Neko.

    I think a Warmaster concept could work, but it would require changes to other pieces of the set, a process we've already gone through. Regarding plushie mort, yes, that's pretty much my point. We can't simply clone a heromart item. If we no longer make it a clone (i.e. exactly as you mention here), then it's fine. The question then becomes how we differentiate it.



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/14/2023 19:16:39)

    Just make the pet have poison potence 10 when out, which I'm not sure what that's worth but it should be at LEAST 5% and thus a 5% reduction to the SP heal. If there needs to be some other rather small player buff auto-hit effect, to slightly further lower the heal, that also makes sense here then OK.

    I also fail to correlate what Broccoli said to the change of heart. It's still going to be a FD water armor that's freely available. If the argument is "we need something good", and you're suggesting the idea isn't good enough, I just have to disagree. The ability to siphon off any resource *is* good. Period.



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/14/2023 20:17:25)

    @SapphireCatalyst2021: To clarify, I did not change my mind because Siphon poisons that can target HP/MP/SP are bad. I changed my mind because I think these kinds of effects are more challenging to pull off. As you mentioned, there would be a degree on circularity - why would you aim to spend resources to heal the same resource (especially if you spend more than you receive)? While it certainly can be done, I think it would be better saved for a different set because this one has also been tied to regeneration and most of the other components have already been finished. I mentioned @Broccoli's post because significantly changing the angle now would be risky and, as he rightly points out, we need to ensure this goes well.



    Sapphire -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/14/2023 23:09:22)

    So never a divulgence from the norm. I see.


    FD and neutral armors can be made with weapons-based skills and still be very good, just as FO can be made with ideas normally placed on FD sets and still be very good.. Armors don't always have to follow the same formula. They don't have to min-max offense or defense, and can find middle ground and perform very well. It's a matter of design decision, intended interactions, and simply detracting (in the mind) from the same ideas of old, is all.

    If the desire is to run a FD armor that , due to healing, can tank amongst the best of the best..I'm sure that can be done (bland). The same can be said for investing in ways to keep pushing offensive output higher and higher. (Same)

    But what about the idea to make something that can do a little of both, although neither of which is min-maxed? I surmise that type of armor might actually do very well, in reality. But alas, keep on keeping on...same 4 or 5 ideas in the entirety of AQ..just different ways to get there. -yawn-

    Ultimately they'll never make us all completely happy. Sometimes you get stuff you want, and other times (usually) we see rehashed stuff.

    It's all good

    quote:


    I mentioned @Broccoli's post because significantly changing the angle now would be risky and, as he rightly points out, we need to ensure this goes well.


    This much we agree on. Hopefully someone will post an idea that facilitates this.



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/15/2023 4:01:54)

    @Robyn
    quote:

    I saw a post listing something like 12 monsters and possibly test mobs inside Anim's house that these become handy in. 12. Thats, idk likely less than 1% of monsters. I wouldn't even really mention Anim's stuff, as these really don't count.

    Exactly

    quote:

    As for your final point, I'd like to raise the most recent monsters the Godscourge monsters. They inflict a variety of effects including Disease. Disease is one status effect that has an obscene difference in valuation between its cleansing and the amount actually necessary to remove it normally. The Godscourge monsters do have a mechanic to make them weaker if you fight them properly, but this does not include removing their status effect infliction attacks. Just because I said these kinds of mechanics are getting more common does not mean that status cleansers do not have a use. If anything, the very fact that status cleansers can also work regardless of the monster's own intended mechanics for the fight is a major issue. Status cleansers remove the thought required to play a fight as intended and lets players bulldoze through status effects by paying marginal amounts of resources.

    Remind me again how that Disease status even affects the fight without the use of a Status Cleanser. I mean, they're given 200% to multiple resists, it's pretty obvious they want to be nuked in some way. That is likely designed to be one of their counters despite the damage caps and high HP pool. If you choose specifically not to go along with what counters a monster then expect a harder time. I would also like to remind you that these are story bosses, letting them be "trivialized' in some way is alright, they are not meant to be uber challenge bosses.

    quote:

    As a side note, I don't know why, but your posts sometimes break the borders of the screen, making it very hard to read. It likely makes others leery of reading your posts as well. Do you know what's going on? Could any staff members explain the site issue involved here?

    I experienced the same thing only for Sapphire's post specifically, not sure why

    @CH4OT1C!
    quote:

    Regeneration has also been neglected in recent years - the only level-appropriate options are Seeds of Restoration, Catnip Senses, Healing Branch (and even this latter one is only if you have leftover from status cleansing)

    Maybe cos it's a trash status that no one likes to use?I am aware of the crazy boosts and healing you can get from them but on their own, they're just worse than a straight up heal imo

    quote:

    Based on the fact that Plushie Mort is a Heromart item, I don't think we can expect or reasonably request a clone in terms of SP regeneration.

    I can fully see where you're going with this and I agree to some extent. It doesn't need to be on the same power level or do the exact same thing though like what Sapphire mentioned here
    quote:

    This version doesn't have to have the same potency on the heal. Plush Mort can still be king, and this pet can have something else that takes up it's melee value to both differentiate it as well as slightly lower the heal power.


    @Sapphire
    quote:

    But why not make something every now and again that's hitting that middle ground, where you get good offense and good defense but neither are BiS in each side...the result could potentially be a very potent armor/set, etc.

    I cautiously agree with this. I like stuff that can do everything but sometimes too much of that makes it garbage. It really highly depends on what comes out

    @Broccoli
    quote:

    Because water FD armours are in a terrible state.

    I agree with this but I don't think we need to corner ourselves into making this a super meta set because of that. Regen and Poison would likely not even be considered if that were the case. I would rather go with something like Dodge, EleShield, something with a crazy instant heal or even something BM themed. Honestly, I think the War Master suggestion isn't bad at all so nothing is being squandered here and while this can be subjective, you know I set my own bar for good items pretty high





    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/15/2023 6:04:24)

    Regeneration is a really great example of marginal effects being excluded. The status inherently has notable limitations (harder to boost, cannot crit, lean independent), and arrived just before an era in which Offensive, high damage strategies were favoured (and essentially unchallenged). It created somewhat of a feedback cycle: Being marginal created less demand, so new items avoided regeneration as an effect. The lack of item releases also meant a lack of items to potentially overcome these problems, reinforcing the negatives and ensuring it would remain marginal. There are legitimate benefits to using regeneration (stat independent, lean independent, stored power), but there hasn't been the opportunity to really showcase them. The set is an opportunity to do so. Of course, this is inconsistent with my stance around @Broccoli's post to ensure the set goes well. Personally, I didn't think Regeneration was a good idea for this set and I have already voiced those concerns. However, as @Ianthe has already mentioned, the theme has already been set to Regeneration and Siphon poison and it's a bit too late in the day to change course.

    A pet focused on SP regeneration that's different from Mort isn't a problem, and in some ways would be very generous to open to all players. I would only note caution on extra SP you provide to the player. As I discuss on this thread in detail, giving more SP regeneration options to the player has important implications for the upcoming stats rework. Implications that can't easily be resolved.

    EDIT: I suspect that @SapphireCatalyst2021's posts breaking might have something to do with the length of their username



    Korriban Gaming -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/15/2023 12:02:30)

    quote:

    The status inherently has notable limitations (harder to boost, cannot crit, lean independent)

    Exactly why it's a trash status lol

    And I think we can sorta see the problem with the status here. It's not as powerful as a straight up heal and unfortunately can't ever be since the power has to be split among a few turns and it also can't be boosted in any way. I think the easiest way to change this status to actually make it a competitor to instant heals would be to allow some form of buffs to affect it. My proposed idea would be to let Hypercrit and leans affect it. Granted, it means you need other items for this to be effective but who doesn't boost stuff nowadays



    CH4OT1C! -> RE: =AQ= 2023 Summer Season of Giving (8/15/2023 13:49:08)

    @Korriban Gaming
  • With regards to a previous comment intended for @RobynJoanne, not everyone may have the ability (or indeed want) to nuke down an enemy, even if that strategy is the most 'obvious' choice (as with the Godscourge). Assuming that we do follow the obvious strategy, these monsters have high HP. It can also be assumed there's a reasnable chance the player may run out of resources between heals (especially if one nukes with no regard for resource preservation). This requires resource regeneration, which would be pretty difficult if a powerful disease afflicts the player. We must also assume that not everyone may have equally efficient nuke options.
  • Regarding the buffs for regeneration, if memory serves, I don't think it's quite as simple as just "allowing" Hypercritical and leans to affect these statuses. And in any case, there are legitimate benefits to using regeneration as well. It's more that such statuses are less efficient and effective for players that primarily focus on nuking as opposed to a more conservative approach. I wouldn't expect a nuke-oriented player to enjoy this status any more than they would enjoy the siphon poison.
    On a separate note, previous discussions have raised that DOT effects like poison shouldn't be affected by armour lean, they're intentionally meant to be disproportionately benefitial to defensive players. I could see a similar case being made for regeneration.



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