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RE: =AQW= Class Discussion Thread

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1/25/2019 0:18:17   
Edme MacHeath

I literally don't know how to help you at this point. I've tried explaining it as well as I can. Several paragraphs and sequenced across many posts and there's still problems. I'm not sure what I'm really supposed to explain at this point.

It's a hard combo for sure but it's actually possible. Looking back through my post I guess I did forget to mention the use of 2 and it ended up sounding like 5,4,3,2,3. My mistake there do not use that combo. I simply forgot to mention the use of 2 after 4.

Other than that I don't know what to say. I've got no other idea how to make it work for you.
AQ  Post #: 201
1/25/2019 2:31:25   
Hardcastle McCormick

^Well thanks for finally telling me the combos so I know what you're doing differently. It's your own fault if you took 5 posts to simply say "this is the number sequence I use."

I've found now that I can pull off the combo as long as I destroy my keyboard and have no lag whatsoever.
Also I have to get all possible dodges and not whiff any auto attacks between cycles to have enough mana.
Then assuming all of that goes well, my damage still won't be 20k, 40k, 60k, 80k unless I get Spiral Carves every cycle.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/25/2019 2:48:57 >
AQW  Post #: 202
1/25/2019 18:50:39   
you stop

Ah well I'm more or less happy with my results. Im not hitting the damage numbers Edme is claiming but I'm not doubting it either. It's just hard to be taught with words because this class requires specific timings. But as long as I'm not getting results below VHL nor results where EC is just significantly better then I'm happy.

In any case have any of you actually tried Elemental Warrior with Frostval Barbarian? We've seemed to theorycraft around it being good with the support but I havent seen it in action. How good is it? Ive seen Cryomancer and it was actually really smooth but not Elemental Warrior
AQW  Post #: 203
1/25/2019 19:52:25   

I figured I'd shed some light regarding Frostval Berzerker as a Farming Class (even if this was already discussed a decent time ago)

It's decent in certain situations. They're pretty scarce and would be much more of a benefit for a low level/new player.

For the purpose of farming Evil rep (with the slime quest), assuming the player is strong enough to kill the slimes with one press of 5, they're not going to get the haste debuff, meaning they'll be able to always, with 100% consistency kill the slimes without missing or being at the verge of dodge chance (even if it's a kinda minor problem)
From mid to late 30s, Frostval Berzerker seemed pretty decent for farming Arcangrove rep. Probably not optimal, but doing near 1k every time if you manage Enrage well enough is pretty fast, much faster than attempting to use Blood Sorceress, Mage or any other "really easy to get" class.

Maybe I just really like messin' around with possibly not optimal Classes, but I was delighted to find FB's farming capabilities not being completely useless.
AQW  Post #: 204
1/25/2019 20:16:14   
Edme MacHeath

I'm done. This is pure stupidity if all somebody is gonna do is complain about lag or irrelevant things that were never clearly stated and say it's my fault they can't do the combo.

I actually think FB is fine if you understand the difficulty required to obtain it. Probably even better than can be expected for such an easy class.

It's DPS is medium tier, probably abit higher as I said before. It forfeits the ability to heal to achieve that dps but it's not a useless farming class. It's probably somewhere in the mid level, but it has some caviats.
Lack of healing, lack of crits (which isn't too bad of a thing) and awkward cooldowns that seem to not really fall in line with what times actually cooldown (in my experience)

It makes it hard to use as a class despite the class being decent. I felt like the class was working against me to a degree.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/25/2019 20:40:38 >
AQ  Post #: 205
1/25/2019 20:47:24   

I agree on the heal part, a lot of time was wasted /resting on my farming for Arcangrove in my Secondary. I also REALLY agree on how clunky it feels-- I always felt afraid of disconnecting by spamming the skills so much in theory, or getting my 5 key stuck.

There's a couple odd interactions, such as Frozen Beard being kept after Enrage fades, but Frostval Gifts instantly dies after you use Enrage, which is quite disappointing for sustained farming.
I'm still gonna keep it for the sake of support and farming Evil rep (I mean, BB is based off dailies, so I can't replace FB with that yet)
AQW  Post #: 206
1/26/2019 2:53:28   
Hardcastle McCormick

@edme macheath
I have NO IDEA where you get the idea that I was blaming you for me not being able to do the combo, that's the fault of my connection/computer, there's literally nothing to even argue about there.
I was blaming you for not being direct and mentioning the combo earlier so I didn't waste my time on other combos, since I legitimately didn't realize it was possible to fit that many skill uses into 5 seconds until you said so.


I agree that Frostval Barbarian is pretty sufficient for farming anything that can be 1-shotted by its 5 skill.

I'm also perplexed why they decided to take away its ranged auto attack.
At least with ranged it was easier for the class to take on enemies with slightly higher health than 5's damage, as you could just do an auto attack or two before using 5.

On a side note, it reminds me of using Chunin back in the day to farm low level mobs by 1-shotting them with 5.
I actually liked that element of Chunin because it rewarded players for timing an ability properly in farming and pvp.
But after BlazeBinder came out Chunin looked pretty stupid.

Anyway, back to FB. I suppose reducing the auto attack range gave the class slightly more "internal logic" because the ability is sort of described as a melee swing(even tho Vampire Lord has 20 foot claws).
But mostly it just hurts a class that was already struggling from being too niche and too low damage to justify replacing StoneCrusher or LightCaster in most group situations.
It could be a nice compromise to give the class a "medium" ranged auto like SSG has, so it at least has the extra farming viability.

There should be more medium ranged abilities in general, it seems like an underused mechanic.

As for class synergies with FB, Elemental Warrior is a decent option but it still has the downfall of not always being able to activate its haste boost.
When you don't have the haste boost it's a somewhat worse class than some of the other options.

Ultra OmniKnight and Shaman were probably the most impressive classes I saw that specifically benefit from the mana buff.
Horc Evader and VoT/Collector are decent. Arachnomancer is best used for its defense debuffs in conjunction with StoneCrusher, but it also gets a fair amount of power from FB.
TimeKiller is also maybe an option... anybody remember that class? Its damage is probably still too low, but I'd love to dust it off and use it for something other than PvP for once.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/26/2019 3:31:44 >
AQW  Post #: 207
1/26/2019 5:56:30   
Edme MacHeath

I've personally always wanted to see what CardClasher looks with both double damage and max haste, especially even with a 51% boost.
It becomes to the point where the universal refresh prevents you from pressing 1 and 2 fast enough with max haste, atleast it feels that way.

I still DoomKnight Overlord is a class that would be ridiculous with max haste and crit chance. It has like near 8k from its first skill during crits with NSoD I think. I could be wrong with the amount but it's definitely high. max haste would be a 1.5 second cooldown, making it super spammy at only 10 mana, like even less with reduced mana costs, basically it becomes the cheapest nuke every second and a half. Not to mention it's second skill is also nuke-like, this all is under the assumption of a full party.

Necromancers actually decent with support. i'd say it's potentially even better than horc. It can benefit from more haste and has a lower crit chance. And with max haste it has the same auto speed as horc but it's enrage mode buffs necro more than horc and doesn't screw over the team by buffing the enemy. not to mention some better outlets for nuking or dealing high damage with weaken and command undead.
Both of which become spammy with max haste and reduced mana costs. and also guaranteed crits.
It also just seems like it wouldn't worry about mana at all with a support that could heal and just spam infect way more recklessly.

Mindbreaker guaranteeing 18k nukes seems like it'd be decent too. 36k seems also pretty ridiculous every like 10 seconds or 5 with max haste.

The last one I kinda want to see reach full support is DragonSlayer General. It's usually only fast against dragons when it can get like 40% extra haste for a period. But a looped 30% from SC and a boatload of more crit chance and mana support might be interesting.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/26/2019 5:59:18 >
AQ  Post #: 208
1/26/2019 6:52:02   
you stop

I do personally think that even just SC already gives DSG infinite mana, even if one were to run Spiral Carve instead of Mana Vamp. The haste boost puts its 2 skill on a spammy level, meaning you will consistently get mana back against dragons, where DSG is most useful.

Next question though, I wonder when people will realize it might actually just be faster to get SC+FB then these nuking classes instead of spamming LightCaster all the time? I do understand that VHL is also a valid option given its high burst potential but let's face it, classes with harder hitting nukes with lower cooldowns exist.

Also let's try not to get absurd with calendars in this discussion. Given: of course calendars would be the better option.

< Message edited by you stop -- 1/26/2019 6:54:03 >
AQW  Post #: 209
1/26/2019 9:54:18   

I think people won't really realize it for a good while since most people are just willing to use "whatever is the most strongest-er class", be it from a friend's recommendation, a guide or a youtuber.
It'd be a delight whenever people realize that, however-- many of the "hard hitters, but can't get mana for their own good" would become viable. I remember I tried some odd interaction between a Healer using 5 on a Shaman, and the Shaman trying to solo DoomKnight Overlord, and I have to say it was rather interesting, so I can only imagine if everyone had at least 1 SC and FB in their team fights. Shamans could be stackd for pretty massive damage at longer fights (or LightCasters, I feel both would do a good job), Dragonslayer Generals would show that they are good classes (specially for their effort) and would demolish Dragons ASAP, Cryomancer could finally shine, and... overall, it just sounds pretty nice.
I mean, I even tried Thief of Hours + FB and it wasn't anything to laugh at, the constant healing means you don't need to rely on dodge and dreadlock to heal, so you can just focus on doing damage and reflecting the increased crit damage.
AQW  Post #: 210
1/26/2019 13:38:47   
Snow Angel, Bug Hunter, Class Tester


I'm also perplexed why they decided to take away its ranged auto attack.
Largely because we sometimes forget that we know a lot of issues that can cause disconnections and thus can avoid them in our testing, but a lot of players don't know them and thus get disconnected. Reducing the cooldown and the range on the AA was a way to help with that. Of course then the bug reports went from "The class disconnects me" to "The AA isn't ranged anymore" but there you have it.
AQ AQW  Post #: 211
1/26/2019 19:47:14   
Hardcastle McCormick

^So from what I gather, the issue comes from people selecting a new target with the auto attack too fast for the cooldown to keep up?
If anything I would think that mostly comes from the negative haste making the auto cooldown too long to switch targets, and I'm pretty sure it can still happen with melee... just less likely.

Wouldn't it also solve the problem to just cut the auto cooldown all the way to 2 or 2.3 while keeping its range?
Or alternatively, keep the auto cooldown the same and make the haste debuff -50% instead of -100%...

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/26/2019 19:58:45 >
AQW  Post #: 212
1/27/2019 7:46:23   
you stop

Well just being honest, the ranged autoattacks also make it harder to use this class as a support since it prevents things like Eternal Chronomancer from reaching full damage due to missing a couple of seconds just to move from one side of the screen to where FB pulled it.
AQW  Post #: 213
1/27/2019 9:27:48   

What if Enrage had a mechanic of turning the Auto Attack long distance (while also having a longe duration? I feel Enraged lasts too little considering how likely you are to instakill as Enraged FB... Unless you're farming monsters that WILL kill you), and perhaps while at it also make Skill 4 do something else when Enraged? Not likely that you'll ever use it due to how slow you become, and how the nature of farming as FB is.

I'd also enjoy if the haste decrease was only 50% (or, that skill 4 made you gain up to 50% hate when enraged?), but I dunno how well that'd work out.
AQW  Post #: 214
1/27/2019 10:24:05   

The issue with FB pulling the boss away from the other players *could* solved by the FB just moving near to the boss' spawnpoint before starting doing their thing, it wouldn't even take that much more brainpower considering that's the most basic set up ever, and sometimes the problem with a class *can* be located between the keyboard and the chair...

The main issue with FB as a support class to me is simply that it is too powerful animation wise, which causes everyone to lag, I recall when Phantasmagoric Revenge came out, I was using EC to kill Jir'abin, and a guy asked me which Support I would prefer(between FB and SC), I was so frustrated with the lag that I simply responded "The one that doesn't lag me out of my combo", and that was enough for him to get the message...
AQW  Post #: 215
1/28/2019 15:23:51   
Hardcastle McCormick

^Agreed. And I thought StoneCrusher was laggy...

It's true that classes with ranged auto attacks can draw the bosses away in a casual setting, but in my experience pretty much anybody using a class with any ranged abilities tends to do that at everyone's inconvenience, sometimes they just sit there not even using any melee abilities their class has and wait for the ranged ones to go off cooldown to draw aggro again. I got into the habit of using Eternal Inversionist for the Mana Elemental in Gilead simply because any LightCaster/LegionDoomKnight/ChaosSlayer would draw it to them and then just sit at the bottom of the screen the whole time drawing aggro. I think in some cases people just don't realize they're out of position because on their screen they're not, due to lag or some kind of glitch.

I can't blame them for that as it happens to me pretty frequently in pvp... but I digress. I don't consider that a downside worthy of sabotaging the class's farming potential.

< Message edited by Hardcastle McCormick -- 1/28/2019 15:32:53 >
AQW  Post #: 216
1/29/2019 3:49:20   
Edme MacHeath

There is a glitch where people who enter a room when another player is clicking to move to a spot will view the room as if that player had already moved to that spot.
Which is pretty abusable in PvP but also can really suck in a group.

Another one is that players don't sync correctly upon entering a map and i'm not sure if this is triggered by anything but it often requires you to rejoin or relogin.

Lag also can cause you to desync perspectives and its very noticable when it happens. I think it has to do with people's connections to the client differing and causing their perspectives to time animations differently. In my experience this can happen even with the walk animation.
AQ  Post #: 217
1/29/2019 16:23:05   

Onto some news!

Based on the pool Pisces put out in January, we are getting anniversary class buffs! Chunin, Artifact Hunter, and DoomKnight! VoT was initially in the list, but based on community pushback and demands for Collector to be buffed as well if VoT was going to get anything, it was removed in favor of DoomKnight.

I was personally initially disappointed with the class list, but the change from VoT to DmK revitalized me, specially because DoomKnight is a class I have lots of fond memories with, it's still not a completely accessible list considering DmK is mem-only, but it is better than it was before.

As a side note, I have to say I was completely unaware that DoomKnight counted as the 1st anniversary class, and I was there for that release...
AQW  Post #: 218
1/29/2019 17:24:00   

still would rather see verification classes revamped, but itll be nice to see chunin in my regular rotation again, and fingers crossed for an armor version
DF MQ AQW  Post #: 219
1/29/2019 17:43:57   

Pisces frequents a Discord server I am in, and he has brought up that he has plans to buff Verification classes, since while they lost the pool, it was still a high enough portion of the votes(32%) that it shows how it's very much desired, we just don't know when that is coming other than "sometime this year", but then again, we are still in January.
AQW  Post #: 220
1/29/2019 20:00:51   
Edme MacHeath

Those times at each of those classes release when all four of those classes anniversary classes were meta at something.

All of them were meta at their own release.

< Message edited by Edme MacHeath -- 1/29/2019 20:05:51 >
AQ  Post #: 221
1/29/2019 21:41:59   
you stop

Verification classes huh? I was slightly thinking about paying for starcaptain in mechquest even though I don't play it but 20$ simply for collection seemed too odd. We don't even get badges for it like the HM 20$ classes that don't do anything useful. But if they do buff/rework the class then I might just be inclined to go for it. It might be funny to add my 3rd Defender class too

Speaking of verification classes, I still personally find it funny how DragonLord class has nothing to do with being a DragonLord, let alone having a free dragon pet pepehands

< Message edited by you stop -- 1/29/2019 21:43:06 >
AQW  Post #: 222
2/1/2019 23:13:20   

And now for more news!

The buffs are out! ...well, most of them are, Chunin didn't get it quite yet, I wouldn't be able to tell you why.

I could only test DoomKnight since that's all I own, and it had its 5 buffed, it's honestly a huge upgrade, now it takes no mana, taking 20% HP instead, which immensely helps with the class' mana issues, on top of that, it now increases Haste and Crit rate by 20%, which further helps with the class' mana issues by allowing you to attack and crit more often, plus it's a very notable buff to DPS, it's a very subtle buff that wraps the class together really well, and I am probably going to use it a lot more in the future.

What about the other buffs? I don't have Arcane Dark Caster, but I hear the buffs on it are pretty amazing.
AQW  Post #: 223
2/2/2019 2:17:19   
The ErosionSeeker
*insert cheesy pun here*

^ I don't know if you have Dragon Shinobi, but the ADC buff was basically the same kind of change as the DS buff. Not needing like 3 minutes to hit max (100) stacks is obviously good.
DF AQW  Post #: 224
2/2/2019 5:26:16   
you stop

Doomknight buffs are actually really great. It feels like a more balanced Harbinger where the lower you get, the higher your nukes get. I only tested it once and it hit Glacial Berserker level damages. Im pretty sure I was using it really in a suboptimal manner too. I'm at a point where I'm still determining whether it's better to use HP vamp so you can maintain your haste buff or if Spiral Carve can just maintain your crit rate. Extra HP allows 20% crit chance and 20% haste too, while Spiral Carve is an extra 10% crit chance on top of the said boosts.

What I have noticed is that once you get low, it is a bit hard to get back up in HP as the regen from Soul Steal isn't the best. Even without pressing Blood Offering, this is the case. I think 20% HP cost is too much to let the Haste/Crit buff to maintain. I do like how you're constantly low and are constantly outputting 10k+ crits (I'm hitting 15ks at about 400-500 HP). But again, this is assuming you crit which you are not most of the time. Also, this emphasizes the debate between HP Vamp and Spiral Carve. I think I'll first figure out a viable way to play this class (pretty sure it's decision based but ye) then from there figure out the best enh.

Queen of Hope v2 (216826 HP)

Spiral Carve
1:20 (could've gone lower if my 2 nukes hit, even as noncrits)
1:12 (extremely lucky, nukes critting left and right. i dont think this would be anywhere near average)

i'll test hp vamp in a bitnvm I prefer Spiral Carve. If someone wants to do this test, they can. I give up on HP vamp's randomness and it just lowers my nuke unnecessarily. It lets me loop the Haste/Crit buff but I don't think the randomness is very convenient for me.

Conclusion:none. I don't know which is better but I don't want to deal with HP Vamp, especially just for one class, so I'm going with Spiral Carve.

< Message edited by you stop -- 2/2/2019 5:56:43 >
AQW  Post #: 225
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