=ED= Balance Discussion XII (Full Version)

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Mecha Mario -> =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 21:45:23)

=ED= Balance Discussion Thread


All balance discussions will be restricted to this thread. This is to condense the many issues that you have all expressed into a single place that the balance people can work on.

Please keep all balance discussions in this thread, and don't forget to follow the forum's rules.

Some things that the balancers would like you to avoid discussing. Please do not post about the following things.
quote:

No discussion/request for buffing or enhancing Founder Armor - Any additional perks that founders may recieve will be at the discretion of the staff.

No "luck" complaints - This thread is not a place to complain about an unlucky streak that caused you to lose a match. Please remember that while luck may seem to favor or disfavor you in the short run, over the long run it does average out.


quote:

As a general rule, no buffs will be granted to rare items. This is regardless of their status as Limited, Seasonal, Promotional, etc. In order to achieve a more balanced system of play, buffs cannot be guaranteed or handed out on a regular basis. This policy has been decided by the game staff and is not likely to change. However, if you feel that your case is especially strong, that is, you have numbers and evidence to support your conclusions, you are welcome to contact the game staff using this forum's PM system to discuss it more thoroughly. Keep in mind that the game staff cannot promise that your case will be followed through upon, as the game's balance will take precedence over personal requests for the sake of all of the game's vast player base.

In regards to this discussion thread, you are still permitted to discuss buffs to rare items, but these discussions must be placed within this thread.


quote:

Posting random stuff and saying how you hate the game, and that there is no balance is not allowed. This does not contribute to a helping balance discussion and is useless for people. Try and think of some numbers, examples, or routes to take when dealing with balance. You can agree with posters, or disagree and say what you should change. Once again, posting "this game is not balanced titan y no fix?? titan = money" does not contribute to anything, and will be dealt with.


If you disagree with these policies, please send Lord Barrius a PM and the issue will be discuss. DO NOT post in this thread to protest these things, your post will be deleted and you will be issued punishments for breaking the rules.


=ED= Balance Discussions I
=ED= Balance Discussions II
=ED= Balance Discussion III
=ED= Balance Discussion IV
=ED= Balance Discussion V
=ED= Balance Discussion VI
=ED= Balance Discussion VII
=ED= Balance Discussion VIII
=ED= Balance Discussion IX
=ED= Balance Discussion X
=ED= Balance Discussion XI



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 21:47:32)

Okey Staff You Gotta Nerf Caster Tm, Cuz Most of the time i need to boost to win them and I Don't Like that. And Some str nerf.



Nub Apocalypse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:02:49)

@Mother1: It's pretty much impossible to get rage at round 3. Stop making up random statistics, you did NOT see a merc get rage at round 3. Even with max Adrenaline, and support which completely excels your opponent, the only way to get rage at round 3, is if your opponent has 80 def/res, and also if your attack dmg is 83+ So are you telling me, that you saw someone with 183+ support, and max adrenaline, attacking you, who coincidentally had 83 def/res?



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:04:35)

Here merc Doing rage at round 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FANABiHL-co&feature=plcp



Nub Apocalypse -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:06:58)

My bad I forgot blocking calculations, but even so, it requires too many conditions, that rage at round 3 is too rare. A BM with such low def, will hardly gain the amount of rage a merc does from blocking. (since the higher amount you block, the faster rage gets).



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:08:01)

@nub I often rage way earlier than normal with a Support BM. I usually start with aux and I end up raging before it cools down half the time.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:08:15)

and that was when adranaline was 20% at max.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:08:55)

Rayman we all know that the caster build needs to be nerfed, however how about adding how it should be nerfed?

Here is how I think it should be nerfed.

1 Add a stat requirement to the Plasma bolt and the plasma rain A Str requirement of 42 at max is a good. This way we limit the amount of points a player can spam into tech.
2 increase the cost of Plasma bolt. Putting it an pair with fireball's 33 points at max would be good.
3 increase the amount of tech needed to make the plasma bolt increase in power. 4 tech instead of 3 is good.

As for Plasma rain

Same thing as plasma bolt only make it were 40 tech is the requirement for this at max and up.

Supercharge is good as is since it is on par with it's surgical strike counterpart no need for a nerf here.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:13:18)

@mother Stat requirement back on PB should do it just fine. Maybe switching the requirement on Reroute to Support as well.



Master Volcon -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:22:00)

I am not raging at anyone with this post, I hardly ever post so bare with me here.... If you have a problem with my ideas PM me and we can discuss it further.

Mother, none of those ideas are good in my opinion.
-If you look at what the devs say they want to get rid of requirements eventually, so if they got to the point and had balance better and removed it then plasma bolt would be OP again.
-Increase the mana? Well that is minimal, it use to be 33 and I was able to pull off some of the same builds. Granted I have 1 less defense because I put 8 more mana into my build (4 dex points) however 1 more damage per physical damage turn will not change anything.
-Increase the tech damage raise rate? This will hurt balance at lower levels where there are not as many enhancements or stat mods.

I think that the devs are very smart and good at what they do. They built this game for heaven sakes, so if you think that your idea's will fix everything them offer it to them, but let them ultimately decide, don't rage because they didn't do it. You don't have anything to lose by suggesting them, they can potentially lose a player base by doing something wrong.

______________________

Alright on separate note, merc is a tricky class. TO be completely honest it is not OP in any way, however it is not UP either. This class takes a lot of skill to play and frankly a lot of credits to try so many builds.

Support builds are alright, but are limited to damage. Since its support that means no blood commander thus no hp regain.
Str. builds people say are Op. Well you have 34 skill points, 24 with hybrid. 14 with blood commander, then 8 with a decent adrenaline. What skills can you get to be good with 8 skill points? Not many, so lets say you skip adrenaline, well 14 still isnt much compared to the 24 blood mages will have after blood lust. I exclude deadly aim because that doesn't take a turn to activate like blood commander does.

** You can rage on round 3 **

It is possible, just takes the right planning and skills used in a good order to do, but you shouldn't rely on it.


______________________

Please, just suggest your ideas and be positive about it, the game will get better, just give it time :)



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:24:43)

@volcon I believe they were planning on getting rid of requirements on weapons eventually, not on everything. Stat requirements on skills are to prevent lower lvl abuse of the skills.



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:25:03)

Mother: Str Req to PB IS Bad Bad Idea, we have to balance the caster tm Not Kill IT. It's not like they weren't Unbeatable Lol.
Just 33 Energy Cost can be good idea and make it like fireball but a bit more powerfull, thats it.

And Plasma Rain Is balanced, I Don't even find it a problem.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:41:35)

Rayman a stat requirement for the plasma bolt would keep people from spamming as much of their points into tech which is what is making the Plasma bolt so overpowered. Adding an energy requirement will slow down some casters, but does this stop the bolt in itself from being OP? no it doesn't. That was why I thought about the stat requirement. Every other move in the game that is offensive that uses energy has a stat requirement why should Plasma bolt and Plasma rain be exceptions? It is because of these exceptions (Rabble plan to buff TM for lower levels) that the caster build is now OP.

Master Volcon sure it is helping the real low levels but Mid low to caps levels are OP. I have alts at lower levels that I play with, and my merc alt gets two turn by caster TM using a strong Malf and a Plasma bolt or if I am not two turned I am brought near death. Heck I remember blocking the malf strike, but then I got crit with a max plasma bolt that did 62 damage to me because these casters can spam tech as they please because they don't have a stat requirement. That is what Stat requirements are for so people can't abuse skills and because Plasma bolt doesn't have one it is OP and being abused to the max.

Also Plasma rain isn't balanced it is the same as Plasma bolt. The only reason people aren't saying anything is because no one hardly ever uses it due to the staff making it work with dex instead of tech. However if you look at the way it is set up in one vs one fights it is the same as plasma bolt with the exception of it costing more.



ND Mallet -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 22:54:45)

Stat requirements on skills are mainly for low levels. I don't know Malf got the req from PB though since PB is abused greatly at lower levels rather than Malf. The only time Malf is ever abused is in conjunction with DA or high energy damage from good strength.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/1/2012 23:07:17)

ND Mallet when using my alt which is now at level 24 I played and battled plenty of TM. Many of which used the same combo of malf and Plasma bolt. Even though my alt leveled up a few levels even when it was lower leveled I still seen this combo used as low as level 17 and as high as level 29. While it doesn't work as much for the higher levels (since most of those players are enhanced) at the lower levels with non enhanced players battling these mages many of them get two turned. Even with decent level armor for your level a strong malf and a tech spammed plasma bolt is lethal.

I heard many players saying it is suppose to be potent however this combo is far more potent then it needs to be especially for non enhanced non varium and non enhanced varium players.



Blaze The Aion Ender -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 0:03:29)

@Mother1
I have a lvl 23 varium merc
Ofcourse, he wasn't varium until lately, but he has over 750 wins and 115 losses
You could say that the Malf and Plasma build isn't a problem for me, because I'm varium, but all it really takes if surviving until the malf runs out

2 Boosters always does the trick

rayman, mines named Scrange



Rayman -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 0:19:44)

Mother and blaze: what r the names of those alt? Just wondering.



Renegade Reaper -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 1:07:11)

@nub back when i was a TLM juggernaut, i once saw a merc get rage in TWO TURNS. no joke, no exaggeration.



kittycat -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 1:46:10)

Based on what I recall, I have defeated several Tech Abuse builds and it needs boosters and some luck. There isn't any known way to defeat them without the use of boosters unless the opponent boosts, which can counteract.

Now what are your thoughts with the following listed:

quote:


From: Clicky!
Blood Mages: Skill Constraints: BL skill points + Bludgeon Skill Points = 11 or less, accuracy reduction, applies of Strength is absurd enough.
Tech Mages: Super Charge skill points + Plasma Bolt skill points = 11 or less, applies if Technology is absurd enough, Make Plasma on par, but 3-5 damage points higher due to lack of automatic HP replenishment
tactical: Field Medic + Frenzy skill points = 11 or less, applies if Agility is not 80 or lower.
Cyber/Bounty: Massacre drains 10% rage after use, postponing rage.
Mercenary: take out Double Strike or Berzerker in exchange for a skill that is able to reduce the effectiveness of a stat reduction, cannot be anywhere similar to Assault Bot's special.


Reasons:
Blood Mages: Since Bludgeon and Blood Lust compliment each other very well and it deals 40+ damage at Max level with 100+ Strength at Rage when factoring in Defenses, which is absurdly powerful and can get an HP regain of 10+.To bring down the power, if you have a certain amount of points in BL, you have a maximum amount of points to apply in Bludgeon. I.e. 5 points in Bludgeon, 6 points maximum for Blood Lust with an additional loss of accuracy that is relatively small (-2 to -4%)(Usually, during rage, that defense gets almost reduced in half, making it deal notably damage above 60, if not above 60, then above 50.)

Tech Mages: The use of Plasma Bolt and Super Charge are very complimentary. Similar to the action done to Blood Mage regarding Skill Points. You can have either an effective version of both that deals adequate damage or 1 that is at its maximum power. (PB+SC) cannot exceed 11 skill points. In addition, the power of Plasma Bolt should be slightly more powerful than Fireball since Tech Mages need to take damage in order to get EP back to use it and lacks an opportunity to automatically gain HP. It should be having a stat requirement and have the same EP cost since FB and PB are similar.

Cyber Hunters and Bounty Hunters: Massacre should be postponing 1 turn of rage, reduce scaling by 33%, and have similar effect as the Mages do: (Malf/SS+Mass) cannot exceed 11. Since the nature of this move is pure damage, the rage reduction, scaling reduction, and skill constraint must apply. However, the exception to this rule is the stat reduction isn't effective for your primary (I.e. Smoke Screen + Energy Primary and vice-versa).

Tactical: Have a passive shield and mana-restoring passive is more than enough. To reduce the excessive reliance of Reroute, FM+Frenzy cannot exceed 11.

Mercenaries: This is seen as a nerf for Strength builds, but a buff on the defensive. It should grant some ability to reduce the effectiveness of the stat reduction. Hybrid Armor isn't enough to compensate for the loss of stats as it resembles to be 20+ normally.



Ranloth -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 2:45:27)

Or instead of all that nerf, requirements, etc. to Bolt how about reversing the buff they gave to Bolt and Fireball and old progression? That buff would make Fireball as strong as it is now so no change but would get better quicker than it should (Str/3 back?) and Bolt would have the same and 33 EP cost instead of 29 EP which was lowered a month after the buff happened (February).
I remember 'Shari saying it's because Multi hits 2 enemies and Bolt hits 1 yet has ~same damage. But Multi is weaker noe so Bolt can also be which is just gonna affect the Casters.



Mother1 -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 3:33:35)

@ rayman

It is extremely hard for a non caster TM to take on a caster. Unlike the other classes TM's energy drain works with reroute. While EMP and Atom Smasher can take away energy with the threat of them getting it back Assimilation unless it is at a really high level and does very little damage will only give casters back energy. In other words they gain more energy then you take away. Plus even with boosters after I am hit with supercharge most of my bar or half of my bar is gone anyways and at this time they already have a rage plasma bolt waiting for me which is already OP as it is since it doesn't have a stat requirement (meaning anyone could spam tech into it and overpower it) How is putting a stat requirement (which is the way it originally was until rabble remove it) going to hurt it? If anything this stat requirement will help limit the amount of tech you can use to power it up.



gangster a -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 4:36:51)

increase dex with every 6 skill points increase strengh with every 5 skill points.

also change blood mage with reroute instead of blood lust and change reroute for tech mages with blood lust.



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 4:45:43)

quote:

increase dex with every 6 skill points increase strengh with every 5 skill points.

also change blood mage with reroute instead of blood lust and change reroute for tech mages with blood lust.


Doesn't even make a single sense.



gangster a -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 4:50:10)

^ made perfect sense to me increase defense i should have said by every 6 stat points increase strengh stat points with every 5 points and swap blood lust and reroute for tm and bm



King FrostLich -> RE: =ED= Balance Discussion XII (10/2/2012 4:58:45)

Let me get this straight:

So Tech Mage has turned reroute into BloodLust... might as well gonna have blood casters since Plasma Bolt has stronger damage output than Fireball and Technology gives higher deflection rate. Blood Mage gets reroute...so what? That means it's just Tech Mage with different anti debuffs. It's a complete trash. You're saying that Defense should increase by 6 while Strength should increase by 5. In my logic, strength increases by 4 pointswhile dexterity increases by 3 before it starts diminishing starting at 55 points. So if defense will start increasing slower than strength, won't that mean strength outmatches your own defenses? In short, every EpicDuel player have a strength based build. No support and the only Tech Build that survives will be either Tact merc or this useless suggestion that Tech Mage turns into "Blood Caster".



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