RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (Full Version)

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monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 0:07:25)

The price is Aegis, i accept that, dont care for the class, but its everyones opinion and choice.

i agree with salene on the strangeness of this choice, i feel the "hero" of DF is like a character from a book, at some point they develop a personality and certain characteristics that may affect said characters choices.
Its one of the reasons i dislike fan fiction, no matter what i want or how many times i read it the count of monte cristo always ends the same, however fan fiction creates ideas that go against characters personalities and create plots that fail the logical decisions that the characters would make.

However this is DragonFable, and the AE staff, if it gets made it will be logical, strange and 101% Ebil with a 10% chance of "DF you crazy"
However for those that want an EVIL hero, it just sounds.....weird (wanna say wrong, but...)
Like an Eggless omelette, in this case the hero is the opposite of an egg (which would be what? bacon, milk, orange juice?) the omelette is evil (also the eggs).
It could happen but it would be more like fan fiction, doesnt sound like the hero, created purely because the fans want it.

@Dark Lord Urmi
DO you want a SW and FW War?
....would that be possible....hmm two branches of the family fighting for power....like....Juliet and juliets cousin? i dont know. Rome and mercucio, no that was his friend, i guess said war would be like any family argument at some point.



salene -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 0:15:17)

I don't think that the hero is good, per say, but the team did explicitly say that the hero wasn't evil enough to say, use forbidden magic! If a staff member could confirm what I just said that would be great



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 0:23:39)

AH but tomix said FW is not forbidden magic since roirr himself is using powers Unique to him and not of FW the only similarity being eating a soul ally is more than likely a single exception to FW being a direct influence by roirr
"Fleshweaving isn't about forbidden magics and possessing things left and right.
It's about weaving with fleshthreads instead of soulthreads." -Tomix page 10 of this topic

also please dont get me wrong i dont want an EVIL hero but i would like a darker one or at least for him to have dark moments beginning and ending with the hero instead of it always because of somebody else serenity is my example of this.



monstervet id LOVE a competition between the families almost feels like the hogwarts cup mixed with the hunger games.







Nightblade2121 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 0:55:42)

I'd trade Aegis in a heartbeat. I have no use for him.

I was never into the whole "goody-goody two shoes" personality that the hero currently has. I feel it represents something no real human can ever be.This is why I've never liked characters like Naruto or Goku and prefer ones like Alucard and Sasuke. What human, if exposed to all the villainous, evil deeds that the bad guys of this game do, would after all this time, come out still being that same infallible, righteous, pure being that they always were? They'd have to at least become a more no-nonsense type of hero, not afraid to spill some blood when the bad guys step out of line.

And yes this is a game so it doesn't have to be realistic, but after all these years, SOME corruption has to have taken place somewhere deep inside the hero's heart and I believe adding an option to become a Fleshweaver at the cost of devouring Aegis would be a good way for people who share my opinion on the subject to see the Hero do something that shows that he isn't as pure as he appears.

If he actually is as pure as he seems then he just ain't human. [&:]








salene -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 0:59:17)

I wasn't saying that forbidden magic was a part of fleshweaving, I was merely comparing the two. However, eating your soul ally seems a tad extreme, and is something that makes me VERY uncomfortable. Aegis has been our ally (get it) for so long, and if we just ate him to receive some great evil power... It kinda seems a little too dark for a hero. I do agree though that moments of darkness are fun! (especially considering I am a villain at heart XD)



Mystical Warrior -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 1:04:37)

quote:

If he actually is as pure as he seems then he just ain't human.

And pulling from this kind of thinking, it's like you are also saying that NPCs such as Lady Celestia, Artix and any other NPC that hasn't shown a dark side by far ain't human also.

Choosing to be incorruptible is a choice for the hero if you do so please, but choosing that path doesn't mean that you are less of a human compared to other characters who actually choose to go for a dark path. If we also take from your Naruto reference, he also has a dark side, its only because he chose not to embrace it, but that doesn't mean he is less of a human also.



Nightblade2121 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 1:39:28)

quote:

Choosing to be incorruptible is a choice


Is it though? I guess you could argue that with the help of magic anything is possible, but looking at it from a purely human standpoint, can the human mind really go through as much turmoil as the Hero's has without being corrupted even a teensy, tiny bit?

People can hardly work their 9-5 jobs without becoming miserable after about 5 or so years. I highly doubt the average human who wants to be an adventurer can withstand years and years of fighting monsters and evil overlords of doom day in day without retaining some dark tendencies.

However the Hero isn't an average human so I guess I have no argument. [&:] But still, it would be refreshing to see the Hero do something as sinister as what's being proposed.



Mystical Warrior -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 1:44:02)

@Nightblade2121 The problem with your argument is that you are using real-life scenarios in a game or something that is fictional. So yeah, being incorruptable in real-life is impossible, but seeing that we are in a game, that choice is possible. So in the end, the Hero being incorruptible is a choice for a game.



Rio3678 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 9:03:07)

quote:

Like an Eggless omelette, in this case the hero is the opposite of an egg (which would be what? bacon, milk, orange juice?) the omelette is evil (also the eggs).
It could happen but it would be more like fan fiction, doesnt sound like the hero, created purely because the fans want it.


Best. Analogy. Ever.

quote:

I was never into the whole "goody-goody two shoes" personality that the hero currently has. I feel it represents something no real human can ever be.This is why I've never liked characters like Naruto or Goku and prefer ones like Alucard and Sasuke.


While I still like the idea of having a good character. I also like a good Anti-hero. I just really like their personalities. "yes I'm a hero. But I'll slaughter anyone who looks at me the wrong way." At least that's the case of some of them (Alucard). Or they could simply be the Ends Justify the Means, type person (Lelouch from Code Geass). But for nearly all anti heroes, what people like most is the personality. That's one reason why I've often said, that if Seppy must turn good, let it be as an anti hero. Cause his personality is one of the best parts about him. The point I'm trying to make with this tangent is that maybe FW could be available for those who'd rather be an anti hero. (was I trying to make that point? I don't even know anymore. lol.)



Sakurai the Cursed -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 9:23:29)

@salene - The staff have said that the hero is not evil and wouldn't use forbidden magics, yeah. But you have to consider that it was a staff member, the same one who told us that we wouldn't be using forbidden magics and the one person who knows best what the choice would entail and thus the morality of it, that said that FW could be a thing.

Really, I get the aversion to eating Aegis. He's a cool guy and a true friend, and eating something doesn't exactly sound pleasant for said something (or, well, the one doing the eating either really...). But saying that it shouldn't happen because it's "too evil" is quite presumptive as they're the ones telling the story and we don't even know how this aspect of it will play out. I guess what it comes down to is trust; we either trust that the staff know what they're doing with the story they're crafting and wouldn't suddenly change their minds about bowing to player will regarding immoral choices that're completely out of character for the hero when they've explicitly told us no about such things in the past, or we don't.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 14:15:14)

Thanks Rio3678
every now and then i have a pearl of wisdom, then i stupidly open my mouth again and ruin it.

Well the thing about a hero is that it isnt easy, a villain simply has things they wont do, whereas a hero has a list of things that they are willing to do.
Are you willing to sacrifice yourself as a hero? a villain wont.
that simple.
If a villain isnt willing to destroy and cause chaos then theyre just being a poser.
However a hero is much more complex, you have to keep your cool, being a goody two shoes means everyone is watching, one mistake and everyone will remind you of it forever.
So dont brush aside, the whole im tired of being a goodie-goodie, its hard, and to remain in the side of "good" all these years, after what the "hero" has seen, i applaud him, its one of the reasons that fleshweaver seems out of character for the hero.
being an adventurer all these years, fighting all those monsters, its never a dull moment.

Have you heard of finn the human, cartoon character, a goody two shoes character with monster hunting parents, he became a monster slayer/adventurer and is well a good guy, he has rage of course he is human, however the few times he's done evil is when he is being controlled by a villain. He cant kill a neutral ant, monster thats evil? in a heartbeat, something innocent? never.
That right there is a hero.

Aegis has died and is now our soul ally, if we die he dies again right? I think that is enough incentive for him to try his best to help us, whatever mistakes he did in the past, he is a completely different character now.

as for a hogwarts type competition between FW and SW?
you meant Zardwarts? no but serously that would sound logical, although the casualties.....
Would soulsmith be neutral in this?



dragon_monster -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 14:18:48)

^I remember that Finn once manipulated his GF to attack the Ice King just so he can have fun. I am pretty sure he has evil in him.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 14:27:43)

^ and the time he put on the ice crown to defeat a small time gang AND an incarnation of the lich even though he was constantly told what would happen which made him mad in the universe he was in.

Seeing as soulsmiths just make weapons i doubt they would do fighting...unless they have npc powers tomix has hidden away XD



W.A.R.Z. -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 16:10:25)

@DarkLordUrmi I think it would be situational if SoulSmiths fight, but if they did their abilities might not be able to be applied to combat, and they might just be inherently better at using weapons with spirits in them than other people would. (Maybe that's why Vaal is so powerful with TRANSCENDENCE considering his ancestry)

I think that the durability and strength of weapons made by the weaving families would be based on how much time is spent making them, because as a SoulWeaver you do make a katana (in very little time) but you don't just keep using it, but with you can use the weapons Lanrete made all the time. Another possible example of this is how the Weaver weapons were created by a "special sect of SoulWeavers" who perhaps delved into a bit of SoulSmithing to create these weapons.



monstervet -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 18:37:53)

wow the DF community and i have more in common than i want to admit, yikes.

edit:
okay so finns a kid and resolves some problems using humor (as we do) he breaks rules and does try to help his friends (as we do)
he may not be the best example but i stand by it.

Soulsmiths being able to wield weapons easily makes sense, however i think that soulsmiths make weapons that benefit the weaving families, that compliment them being SOULsmiths and SOULweavers and all...



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 18:40:21)

LOL we as a community may disagree sometimes but in the end we all love the game and want it to grow i dont think we will ever be truly "split" XD



Rio3678 -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 18:55:21)

quote:

^I remember that Finn once manipulated his GF to attack the Ice King just so he can have fun. I am pretty sure he has evil in him.

quote:

^ and the time he put on the ice crown to defeat a small time gang AND an incarnation of the lich even though he was constantly told what would happen which made him mad in the universe he was in.

Seeing as soulsmiths just make weapons i doubt they would do fighting...unless they have npc powers tomix has hidden away XD


And there was his odd emotional state after his father ripped his arm off.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/12/2015 19:09:57)

^ when he used the women who had a crush on him i remember that. EVERY hero is open to corruption in some way or the other.



Doomful Lord -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/13/2015 0:12:10)

To be Fair in the case of doom weapons and the whole Serenity thing. Doom Weapons themselves are corrupting, but fairly subtle and benign for now and have a very long history in the game. The monster that was birthed from that vile ritual is much different, it's a fusion of the Doom weapon, a fragment of the Mysterious Stranger's Cloak and then created by basically eating Serenity's soul, something I believe we all find heinous, and the hero definitely does. This is a much more fair comparison, because essentially what you want to do is the same thing, eat someone's soul for power.

Also on the issue of me and my opinion on the subject: I really truly am on the fence mostly, I can definitely see it being done well and tastefully, but it's very tricky in my eyes, and I feel it'd be simpler, easier, and better suited that it not be done. But then it's not really because I have any true reason to be against it, just a mere gut reaction. Perhaps in another game I'd see this as being much different, like Adventurequest Worlds or Adventurequest where we are given much more in the terms of choices frequently. The worst choices of dragonfable in my memory that really has an impact was whether or not we kept the cloak fragment, which is more of an awesome plot-point to kill us emotionally in hindsight with I love, or whether or not we buy a Doom weapon (Of course we do, who doesn't love it's lovely lovely stats.) and even that hasn't bared full fruits. Anything else is non-canon and immediately goes back to the option so you can choose the "Right" one. So it's a big step away from the normal mindset of the game, which can be a little scary to some.

Now I do agree with Sakurai in that it is rash to jump to this conclusion and what the staff would do. However this is what this discussion is about essentially, at least from what I can see and to discuss it allows our worries and concerns to be heard which is one of my goals.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/13/2015 0:22:42)

^ honestly though it may be easier but since when does that mean better? The staff could release our normal weekly releases every two weeks that would be easy. im not responding in anger at all let me stress this im just saying it would be easier to not do it could be applied to EVERYTHING AE or the world does also im sure it was because of the scrap being part of the baron that Doom serenity obeyed not because the scrap was melded with it.



UmbraofChaos -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/14/2015 18:27:28)

I think that FW could be really interesting and not only as a new class to play around with. Just the fact that Tomix said that it was something that he could make happen and the repeated statement that the hero is fundamentally a good person really makes the scenario where eating Aegis could occur one that has a lot of potential. And since someone will have to teach you the skills we could get a chance to learn about a new character.

The big problems that I'm seeing is incorporating this choice into the rest of the game and how many consequences will it have. If the whole thing with Roirr is contained mostly to the other continent than it might not be as hard on the staff to pull it off. But if it spreads and knowledge of what you are and what you did spreads then there might be more work for the staff to try and come up with ways to deal with the consequences of your choice. The fact that it's optional would make the whole thing even more complex.

Overall I support the FW just because I've always liked player choice and this is a chance to do something new and interesting. What knowledge we could get from the path alone could be really cool and I would really look forward to how the whole situation with Aegis could get done. Since the hero has already gone over how they can't save everyone but they'll be the best hero they can for those that need them would mean that the situation with Aegis would have to be more dire than just wanting more power. I have faith that the situation can be pulled off believably and would lead to a lot more interesting things concerning the hero's character.



TomeofFaith -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/16/2015 21:59:16)

Personally, I don't think that eating Aegis is something the hero has in him/her. Especially not after what just happened with Serenity. The hero watched that happened. It was deeply traumatic. Having played this game since the beginning, I know that I could never move the hero to something like that. That would be like murdering Cysero. It just wouldn't feel... canon. As Umbra said before me, I'm sure AE could make a situation that made it more believable.



The Master -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/16/2015 23:20:03)

After seeing what happened to Serenity, I imagine eating Aegis would be an equally as horrifying experience for us, probably even complete with a nightmarish trip out sequence or something.



Dark Lord Urmi -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/17/2015 0:32:35)

people can surprise you. it wouldn't be the first time someone didnt think their friend had something in them yet it happened.



Drop_Bear -> RE: FleshWeaver and Soul Smith Class II (5/17/2015 1:23:22)

The real question here is does Aegis taste like ice cream?

Joking aside I think the real question is how to make both options make thematic sense. An option where we are forced to do it clearly does not work as its a choice and if it was an option where it is two quest lines and you need to devour him if you pick the fleshweaver line then it feels like a cop out.

I just can't see how you can reconcile the fact that fleshweaver is a taboo type idea with the characters Heroic nature.

I'm sure the developers could think up something but what id like to know is how many people want it for power and how many people would actually use fleshweaver if it was no stronger than MSW is now and weaker than MSW will be with BA.

On one hand it might be nice to have access to all of the weaving classes but I'd prefer if the time spent making this class was spent on a class for a storyline that does not already have one like the rose or especially the amityvale quest line.

As for people surprising you about what they are capable of our character is supposed to be the example of a hero who while might make mistakes is above reprehensible actions which is something unique in games these days. Aegis seems much like our character in this and I would not want to sully his name in this either (ie, we needed to devour him to stop him doing something). It just seems easier to put the time into a different aspect of the game.



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